Ask HN: Question on situation

#1

Post by tboxer854 » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 7:23 PM UTC

I was hoping to get your thoughts on a situation...

So recently I hired a well known, but small, web design firm. I specifically hired this firm because all of their websites carry a very unique style. They were more expensive then most freelancers I had worked with in the past, but it was worth it to me to obtain this style.

I figured that the head designer and founder, wouldn't take the project as it was smaller. But one of his other 4 designers would do it.

A few days after we paid the deposit, we got an email to join the basecamp project to start things off. In the basecamp was our project manager and a women, who I assumed worked with for this company. When I clicked on her name thought, it was apparent by her email address that she was not part of their company, but rather an outside freelancer.

So, rather pissed at this point, I told my project manager that this wasn't going to work. He tried to claim she was doing a majority of the work for them, but couldn't show me any projects she had done for them. They ended up refunding my money, but wouldn't admit that they were doing anything wrong.

Do you think they were wrong in not disclosing that they were going to farm the work out? Or did I overreact?

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#2

Post by brk » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 7:52 PM UTC

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage.

As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#3

Post by mcantor » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 7:55 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #2

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

I agree, but I think the firm should have just covered all their bases and given her an e-mail at their domain.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#4

Post by tbgvi » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 7:57 PM UTC

You'd be surprised how common that is.

The same thing has happened to me and I didn't know until after the project was over. In the end, as long as your happy with the design it shouldn't matter who worked on it. That being said, stopping the project is def. within your rights since you're the client :)

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#5

Post by huangm » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 7:58 PM UTC

You hire a design firm because you like their portfolio work. As a client, you shouldn't have to ask if the same people responsible for the portfolio work are going to work on your project. My guess is that this is an assumption that most clients will make (I certainly would), so it certainly seems that their actions are a bit disingenuous.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#6

Post by teej » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 8:05 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #2

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

It's definitely important to know what kind of talent is behind your design project. If I'm paying $30/hr for a small project, I would expect it to be handled by a junior person. But if I'm shelling out $175/hr to the same firm for a larger project, I sure as hell better have their best creative minds on it. Setting explicitly clear expectations is an important part of client work.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#7

Post by brk » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 8:08 PM UTC

mcantor wrote: post #3

brk wrote: post #2

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

I agree, but I think the firm should have just covered all their bases and given her an e-mail at their domain.

Then if it was later discovered that the freelancer wasn't a "real" employee they would be accused of misrepresentation as well. I think that the approach they took was correct, they did not attempt to hide, or call attention to, what exactly the freelancers tax status was.

They could have hired this freelancer the day before as a permanent employee, with an honest for-real @designfirm.com email address and the OP would have been perfectly happy (assuming the outcome as acceptable).

This is a mostly a matter of getting worked up over the formality of which logo is on the paycheck.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#8

Post by brk » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 8:10 PM UTC

teej wrote: post #6

brk wrote: post #2

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

It's definitely important to know what kind of talent is behind your design project. If I'm paying $30/hr for a small project, I would expect it to be handled by a junior person. But if I'm shelling out $175/hr to the same firm for a larger project, I sure as hell better have their best creative minds on it. Setting explicitly clear expectations is an important part of client work.

Depends on which talent you're REALLY hiring and concerned with. Are you hiring the director/producer, or the staff.

Provided that the project got proper oversight and herding by the creative director, it does not really matter, IMO, who writes the HTML and diddles the Photoshop buttons.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#9

Post by tboxer854 » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 8:14 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #7

mcantor wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I think the firm should have just covered all their bases and given her an e-mail at their domain.

Then if it was later discovered that the freelancer wasn't a "real" employee they would be accused of misrepresentation as well. I think that the approach they took was correct, they did not attempt to hide, or call attention to, what exactly the freelancers tax status was. They could have hired this freelancer the day before as a permanent employee, with an honest for-real @designfirm.com email address and the OP wo…

Her email address was not out in the open. It took some digging through basecamp for me to figure it out. My main issue was that I looked through the portfolio of the person they were going to have to do it and she wasn't any good.

I also didn't really think it was worth letting her attempt to do it and then fighting them at the end of I wasn't happy.

Re: Ask HN: Question on situation

#10

Post by mechanical_fish » Wed, Dec 02, 2009, 8:17 PM UTC

tbgvi wrote: post #4

You'd be surprised how common that is. The same thing has happened to me and I didn't know until after the project was over. In the end, as long as your happy with the design it shouldn't matter who worked on it. That being said, stopping the project is def. within your rights since you're the client :)

Yep, you're within your rights to panic and flee.

And, yep, you may have overreacted. Companies subcontract work. That's what they do. Among other things, this is how firms train and audition new people -- by hiring them as subcontractors.

If you pay Company X for the work, you get work with Company X's name on it. If something goes wrong, you get to blame the whole company -- they don't get to dodge the blame by passing it on to their subcontractor. But, in return, you shouldn't expect the right to micromanage the internal affairs of the company.

Of course, it's also possible that you dodged a bullet. Who knows? If the contractor couldn't convince you to stay on as a client, using arguments like the ones above, that might be a sign that you weren't likely to get along well together. Client-contractor relationships are a tricky business. Often you are required to make gut-level decisions.