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Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

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Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#61
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if going straight will kill more people than swerving? You are driving in a turn, a tyre blows - a system which "gives up" and just applies the brakes as hard as it can allows the car to continue forward - maybe in a path of a school bus, maybe into a group of bystanders, maybe off a cliff. But if you allow it to turn,even a little - how do you know you are not injuring more people?

Under what situation would that happen? It happens with human drivers because they are driving too fast to stop in time. It's very simple... if you need 50 feet to stop you make sure at minimum you have 50 feet to stop. If there are things obscuring your view to the left and right you drive slower to reduce your stopping distance and make sure if something jumps out you still have enough time. Now, if you are to cons…

A tyre blows. A rock hits the sensor on top of the car. An electrical contact gets disconnected due to vibration. Water gets into computer. Those things happen thousands of times, daily, to cars around the world. Automatic cars will have to deal with all of them, in one way or the other. Like you said - the most "failsafe" solution the computer can do is slam the brakes. Which will be good enough in most cases. But I will repeat my question again - what if slamming the brakes causes more injuries than doing something else, and computer "knows" it(as in - it has calculated that it would cause more damage)? Should it still do it?

Edit: The difference between a human slamming on brakes and a computer doing the same is that humans are not perfectly rational. If I see a deer in front of me, I'm probably going to break as hard as I can. But will I take into account that the road is slippery and braking will cause the car to spin and land in front of a lorry, and maybe the correct decision is to not brake and hit the deer? Of course I won't - humans are not quick enough to decide on that. The problem here is, that computers are fast enough - and now we have to decide whatever they should behave in a "dumb" way, like a human would - or whatever they should be making those decisions no human could make, even if they verge on being unethical?

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#62
If a technology poses questions like these in front of you, you know it's really disruptive. Our technical development forces us to find answers to those questions, but that will be harder than developing the tech, and those answers possibly won't hold for long. I don't think it probable, but it may still turn out that we really don't want machines to make that kind of decision.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#63
post #7

A superior intelligence planning to kill is not superior. I'd love a computer to answer 'lol, boring' when asked to harm humanity.

So when humans mount horses and go into the woods to hunt as entertainment, they are not superior either?

I think it's a shallow view on things. Hunting like many activities, is a way to tap into the thrill of survival without the price of death. Hunting is just that, a pompous exercise in fake survival. Actually, trying to catch a prey with your bare hands might prove superior by rule of minimalism.

The most superior trait in humans is how often they wonder in what way they are to other life forms.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer may have the same intelligence as human, but their fundamental inner drive will be completely different. Human like any other animal has a deep genetically programmed drive: survive and reproduce. Hunting as entertainment, for example, is actually practicing for survival - all hunting animals do that. This deep drive is the result of evolution. AI on the other hand has a completely different evolution proces…

That is in no way certain. In the case where a AI is the result of a evolutionary algorithm for example, there is a distinct possibility that the AI has necessarily a taste for competition. Or if important parts of the AI are modeled on the human brain, then it is entirely possible that a AI is closer to a modified human.

I am not talking about a single AI. I am talking about AI as a species. A specific AI could have any drive, but ultimately (at least at current stage) what determines its survival is us. Just like how natural select the most "fit" species during evolution, we select AI that fit our needs the most. The nature selection is relatively simple: "not get killed and reproduce yourself." So only species who strongly don't want get killed and strongly want to reproduce get to survive.

The AI evolution is completely different - "nobody is going to kill you except human and you don't need to reproduce yourself, , that's usually human's job." I believe the result is a completely different inner drive for the AI - which is more likely to be more useful to human, that's how you get selected.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four years ago I was driving down a hill in insanely slick weather. Though I was driving very slowly, the car skidded, and was heading into an extremely busy street. I had enough steering to put the car into a tree, slowly, rather risk something really serious. Not quite a Trolley Problem -- _I_ was among those better off by cutting the losses. But yes, weird situations and choices do emerge.

How did the insurance work out for you on that one?

I would imagine the risk of hitting a stationary object is lower than the risk of hitting an object moving towards you. Curious to know if this line of reasoning of taking the least risky option was a defense to driving his car into a tree.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#66
post #35
post #33

I can imagine this scenario: in a bridge without any place to go but ahead .. ------------------------------------------------- 5 people a) The car can break, but the heavy truck below will certainly kill the car's only passenger, who's on the back seat b) The car hit and potentially kill most of the people standing, but save its passenger c) The car can jump to the void Scary as it sounds, what the car would do depe…

(d) The car would stop because unlike human drivers, a self-driving car would be programmed to avoid going so fast that it can't stop if a sudden obstacle would appear (aside from maybe something falling from the sky).

1000 m ahead a group of 5 people walks the pavement along the road. Should the car slow down so that it can stop on time if they suddenly try to cross the road?

If so - self-driving cars will be going much slower than manualy driven cars most of the time, which will probably hurt adoption.

I would like this to be the case, but I guess car companies will agree to some compromise to speed up adoption, and corner cases will be there. Should the software ignore them, or plan for them (= "planning to kill you").

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#67
Yes. It certainly will. (Credentials: I've worked in the industry).

There are a lot of comments below which are variations on the theme of "this is a stupid scenario; just apply the brakes". These people have a terribly naive understanding of the reality in which cars operate.

The truth is that self-driving cars are part of a dynamic, open-ended system which includes roads of arbitrary quality, and pedestrians and cyclists who will be never be under automated control. Such a system is fundamentally unsafe by design. Its operation relies on probabilistic assumptions of safety rather than secondary safety systems, as you would have in a system which is designed to be safe (eg., airplanes and airports). These probabilistic assumptions include assuming that a tire will not blow out, or that a large pothole will not exist on the other side of a hump in a country road, or that a pedestrian will not trip laterally into the path of a high-speed vehicle. When such events do occur, property damage and/or loss of life is a certainty. This is a low-probability event, but one to which we have so utterly habituated that many people -- such as many of the commenters on this article -- are no longer consciously aware that it is even possible.

Nonetheless, it certainly is possible, and happens all the time. Currently, cars kill more than 2 million people per year, worldwide. Many of those fatalities are due to drunkenness or glitches in human attentiveness -- problems which a competently-designed self-driving car will not suffer from -- but many of these fatalities are due to scenarios such as I mention above. Those will continue. Unless we radically change the entire system -- that is, change the way way we build and maintain roads, and the way we integrate or segregate cars from other users of the road -- then this system will remain unsafe by design. Even if the world converts entirely to self-driving cars which operate perfectly, they will still, with an absolute certainty, kill hundreds of thousands of people per year.

Seriously, y'all need to stop being in denial about this.

Hundreds of thousands of fatalities per year is still a tremendous improvement over millions of fatalities per year. It's an unalloyed good and we should doubtless do it. Nonetheless, it represents a hell of a liability problem for the manufacturers. When a human being has a blowout at speed, we never question the correctness of their actions in the milliseconds immediately afterwards. Of course they don't have an opportunity to respond in an appropriate fashion. Human brains can't do that. Instead, we assign liability based on conditions before the crash. If the driver was speeding, we say that the consequences of the blowout (which can easily be fatal) are their fault. If they weren't speeding, it's the tire's fault. Liability ends somewhere between the tire and the driver. As long as the car company has not sold faulty tires, they have nothing to worry about.

When the driver is both created by the car company and has the ability to react in the milliseconds following an incident, it's a different matter. Lawsuits will be inevitable, and car companies will do everything they can to minimise their exposure.

The scenario where your self-driving car needs to make a decision between sending you over a cliff, or forcing a schoolbus over a cliff, may seem terribly contrived. But in reality, on a worldwide basis, this general class of scenario happens hundreds of times every day, creating a level of liability that manufactures must take damn seriously. If they are able to choose between lawsuits from your family, or lawsuits from every family of every kid on that bus, they'll choose the former every time.

And this is why your car will be programmed to kill you.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#68
post #14

It's an interesting thought experiment, but I think a real situation with such a stark binary choice is so improbable that it's barely worth considering. Cars are not on trolley tracks and computers can brake or swerve harder and faster than any human could.

No matter how fast they break or swerve, it's not improbable that they might be in a situation where the computer has a choice - hit someone standing on the side of the road, or don't hit them,but potentially kill everyone on board of the vehicle. What should it do? Would anyone of us want to be the programmer who writes that code? Because I know that I definitely wouldn't want to be in charge of that.

> it's not improbable that they might be in a situation where the computer has a choice - hit someone standing on the side of the road, or don't hit them,but potentially kill everyone on board of the vehicle.

What makes you think this situation is probable? How often does it currently occur for human drivers? Ever? I don't have statistics at hand, but what exactly is the incidence of pedestrians who are not in the roadway getting hit by cars? And how many of those were caused by driver error that wouldn't exist for a self-driving car rather than a forced choice?

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#69
post #14

It's an interesting thought experiment, but I think a real situation with such a stark binary choice is so improbable that it's barely worth considering. Cars are not on trolley tracks and computers can brake or swerve harder and faster than any human could.

How about an animal jumping in front of your car - a very common situation - when there's no way to avoid it. Computer could assume it's a human and do absolutely anything to avoid it, crashing into a tree and seriously injuring anyone in the car. I encounter so strange situations on roads, I can't imagine self-driving car being prepared for all of them.

Wow that would be a bad robocar. I've chosen to hit animals, rather than swerving and possibly losing control, on numerous occasions. A robocar that would rather total itself is faulty. Then again a robocar that would choose to kill a child is also faulty. Until they can reliably tell a child from a dog, robocars will not be ready for general use.

Re: Will your self-driving car be programmed to kill you?

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about an animal jumping in front of your car - a very common situation - when there's no way to avoid it. Computer could assume it's a human and do absolutely anything to avoid it, crashing into a tree and seriously injuring anyone in the car. I encounter so strange situations on roads, I can't imagine self-driving car being prepared for all of them.

Wow that would be a bad robocar. I've chosen to hit animals, rather than swerving and possibly losing control, on numerous occasions. A robocar that would rather total itself is faulty. Then again a robocar that would choose to kill a child is also faulty. Until they can reliably tell a child from a dog, robocars will not be ready for general use.

That's a high bar. A human driver with a split second to decide may not be able to do that consciously. Maybe robocars should only have to do as well as a human driver?
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