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Why I dislike systemd

steven-mcdonald.id.au

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Re: Why I dislike systemd

#81
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readability's bookmarklets help: https://www.readability.com/bookmarklets/ (But, yeah.)

I recommend the "zap colors" bookmarklet from https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html It simply changes all colors so that text is black-on-white, but leaves everything else unchanged.

Sadly, it's not just colours that are the problem.

Font sizes, poorly sized and laid-out pages, overlapping divs and other elements, animiations....

Readability fixes most of that quickly.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#83
post #35

This page's horrible readability is a perfect reflection of the kind of folks that dislike systemd. Yeah, newcomers to the Linux land without the expertise you guys acquired through 10 years of using Linux, would apparently appreciate how easy it is to manage a server by invoking some lengthy commands they learned through reading the often overly-dense manual instead of `systemctl start/stop x`. Nowadays some of thos…

Are we really using website design choices as a valid target to discredit someone's opinion on the technical merit of an init system? Can I use Lennart's inability to buy a properly sized polo as a reason why systemd is bad? Yeah. The guy has an ugly website. But he has specific points about mistakes that systemd didn't learn from and is repeating. Did he list 'it's too user friendly' as one of those mistakes? In fac…

[deleted]

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#84
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've occasionally used {Net|Free|Open}BSD over the past few years (in fact, I think my Jornada in the back of the closet still runs NetBSD). I kept sticking to Linux partly because I was using it at $work, partly because it was simple enough and I'm kindda lazy. But yeah: > I find BSD to be far simpler than linux distributions out there. The way OpenBSD handles WiFi configuration is a good example of this. Want to co…

While I don't disagree that wpa_supplicant has been spawned from hell, I find it strange that the existence and popularity of NetworkManager is given as a clue for why {Net|Free|Open}BSD is better. You know, connecting to a WPA protected Wifi network is not the only problem users have. For example, another one would be connecting to a VPN, a task that NetworkManager greatly simplifies, assuming that such integration…

> For example, another one would be connecting to a VPN, a task that NetworkManager greatly simplifies, assuming that such integration is available of course (e.g. if you think connecting to a Wifi network is problematic, try connecting to a L2TP over IPSec VPN).

That's because there is equally no uniform and simple way to connect to use those, either. The problem is that the "simplification" that NetworkManager provides is illusory. Yes, it provides an interface that is easier to access, and all the complexity is moved in the back, where it's handled by NetworkManager.

Unfortunately, the mechanisms through which it does that are fiercely complicated, too. I've had NetworkManager break on me countless times (I worked for a company that developed networking equipment for a while, so I've interacted with NM a lot), for a lot of silly things -- making me end up with slightly incorrect configurations or reapplying settings at weird times for no apparent reasons.

The end result is anything but simplified: not only do I have to deal with the inherent complexity of a quirky VPN connection -- now I also have to understand how NetworkManager reasons about it and figure out where it's wrong.

I also think it's misguided to have a single tool handle things so disparate like VPN and WiFi. It's not like you're ever going to be able to expose those through a unified interface -- NetworkManager's own D-Bus-based API being a prime example of that.

> There's also the issue that the simplicity exposed in your example is a little misleading. Will the system persist that command and re-execute it on boot? Will it remember my previously used Wifi networks and connect automatically should I want that? How can I view the available Wifi networks in range? Being able to connect to a Wifi network using a simple ifconfig command is great, but the notion that your 80% of use-cases is the same as everybody else's 80% is misguided at best.

You scan for networks with ifconfig scan.

The system will not persist commands (arguably, a good decision) but persisting those settings is pretty easy -- you just add the same parameters you pass to ifconfig in /etc/hostname.. (The same parameters as in argv[1:n]).

The only thing it won't do out of the box is automatically connect to previously used wifi networks. I suspect none of the OpenBSD developers want that. I only needed a feature like that once, a few months ago when I moved to a new apartment and had no Internet connection of my own (cable company is shit) so I had to snoop from the free wireless of nearby cafes. The fact that the interface to ifconfig is so simple and uniform meant that the whole thing was a ten-line shell script to scan for, and connect to previously known networks, and a shell alias to save the current network to the list of known networks.

There's an even easier way, using virtual networks, but I didn't know about it at the time.

> So you're saying that xBSD is simpler / better, yet you can't use it on your laptop, as it lacks things you need. Well, no shit.

I have a Windows laptop, which I also had when I ran Linux. My day-to-day laptop runs OpenBSD.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#85
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I have not yet had to use systemd in any serious way, so I may be misinterpreting here, but I think this: > ... and config/daemon reloading as things that could be made automatic, I'm assuming with e.g. inotify change events. is a misinterpretation of the author's complaint. It sounds like with systemd, if you tell it to restart a service it will continue to use the old definition until you run a separate command…

Because systemd is event-driven, you can't actually be sure the service file won't be re-used in the running configuration - or that it won't trigger other service reloads/starts/stops due to its dependency specifications. Ergo systemd requires an explicit reload to commit the state of the unit files once you're satisfied they are as intended. This is very important when you consider that unit files can kill other un…

Aren't you confused with Upstart, which is event-driven? Systemd is mostly goal-driven (e.g. on startup it will start default.target, which involves recursively starting its dependencies).

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#86
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't disagree that wpa_supplicant has been spawned from hell, I find it strange that the existence and popularity of NetworkManager is given as a clue for why {Net|Free|Open}BSD is better. You know, connecting to a WPA protected Wifi network is not the only problem users have. For example, another one would be connecting to a VPN, a task that NetworkManager greatly simplifies, assuming that such integration…

> For example, another one would be connecting to a VPN, a task that NetworkManager greatly simplifies, assuming that such integration is available of course (e.g. if you think connecting to a Wifi network is problematic, try connecting to a L2TP over IPSec VPN). That's because there is equally no uniform and simple way to connect to use those, either. The problem is that the "simplification" that NetworkManager prov…

Network Manager still has problems. I've had a lucky streak for a few years where it hasn't given me problems, but the other day the GUI decided not to save my settings anymore. It looks like it does, but it doesn't. If I kill the beast and tap in the commands it just works, but if I run the daemon it keeps feeding the backends with old settings.

How do I debug this? There's just sockets and layers of GTK. I'll probably end up doing whatever voodoo I need to keep it away and give it another few years.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#87
post #61

I don't "hate" systemd either, I just think it's a bad approach. It flies in the face of the "open architecture" concept and stifles innovation. It discourages users from learning about how their operating system works, and it unnecessarily puts too much control of a fundamental component of the OS in the hands of a too-small number of people. None of these reflect the Linux I grew up with. Thus, I am not a fan of sy…

Interesting way to think about it. IMHO systemd is taking much of the hacks and weird glue that has historically held distributions together and replaced it with an active upstream project. Maybe some of the solutions they've come up with could need some improvements, but I have much higher confidence those improvements would happen now compared to how things used to be. Nowadays you can code something up and come to…

Unfortunately, the systemd development team is not that easy to work with, which is part of why a lot of people distrust systemd the way they do.

In theory, yes, it should be the way you mention it. In practice, even bug reports end up unacknowledged and labeled as features after a few philosophical debates.

No one who has used more than one Linux distro would disagree that a unified system to control init services is a good idea. It's this particular implementation that's problematic, not the principle.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#88
post #50
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm one of the people who jumped ship to OpenBSD in the last year or so. Ha. FreeBSD here. And so long as you get the right hardware, I find BSD to be far simpler than linux distributions out there. Ports? Beautifully elegant and simple. Configurable. Magnitudes easier than configuring rpm/debs. Getting a package approved in debian? Alioth? No offense, the wiki, all these pages on the debian website - they have no…

I've occasionally used {Net|Free|Open}BSD over the past few years (in fact, I think my Jornada in the back of the closet still runs NetBSD). I kept sticking to Linux partly because I was using it at $work, partly because it was simple enough and I'm kindda lazy. But yeah: > I find BSD to be far simpler than linux distributions out there. The way OpenBSD handles WiFi configuration is a good example of this. Want to co…

actually, wpa_supplicant isn't that hard to configure as long as you only use the GUI. just scan for APs, double-click on the network, and type in the PSK. no documentation-reading required.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#89
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've occasionally used {Net|Free|Open}BSD over the past few years (in fact, I think my Jornada in the back of the closet still runs NetBSD). I kept sticking to Linux partly because I was using it at $work, partly because it was simple enough and I'm kindda lazy. But yeah: > I find BSD to be far simpler than linux distributions out there. The way OpenBSD handles WiFi configuration is a good example of this. Want to co…

$ vim /etc/network/interfaces auto wlan0 iface wlan0 inet dhcp wpa-ssid wpa-psk You can also have multiple virtual interfaces configured in the same file as above, and then just do "ifup wlan0=virtualif" to switch. Much ado about nothing.

Absolutely. It's also more secure this way, since you aren't putting the passphrase in a readable-by-any-user command line argument.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#90
post #35

This page's horrible readability is a perfect reflection of the kind of folks that dislike systemd. Yeah, newcomers to the Linux land without the expertise you guys acquired through 10 years of using Linux, would apparently appreciate how easy it is to manage a server by invoking some lengthy commands they learned through reading the often overly-dense manual instead of `systemctl start/stop x`. Nowadays some of thos…

Readability != style & aesthetically pleasing.
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