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Why I dislike systemd

steven-mcdonald.id.au

31–40 of 254 posts

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#31

Am I missing something? The author states: > Try to find the answer to "which units are going to be started on next boot?". Isn't this just `ls /etc/systemd/{user,system,network}/ /*` (bah HN formatting is messing this up) Also the other states: > Speaking of which, why is systemctl daemon-reload even a thing? Because configuration changes while things are running. Otherwise we wouldn't need apache2 reload, nginx rel…

> Isn't this just `ls /etc/systemd/{user,system,network}//*` (bah HN formatting is messing this up)

Nope.

There are many virtual units for which there are no files. One example is the on-demand getty units. There are two for "plymouth" boot-splash stuff (I see these attempted-and-failed units on archlinux where plymouth never exists). There's some autofs thing. There's auditd.

I'm actually not booted into linux right now so I'm struggling to remember the specifics... but if you also count all the simple mounts and devices which clutter up the output of "systemd --all" as "units which are not files in /etc/systemd" then the count is around 100.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a professional sysadmin, but as a developer with a bunch of virtual servers systemd has only made things far easier. Writing init scripts used to be a real pain, now I can set up a unit file in two minutes and it works... Maybe there's something to be said for "sysadmins who want to be able to model the entire boot process and run-state in their head" but with correct information about dependencies and so on,…

> Writing init scripts used to be a real pain, now I can set up a unit file in two minutes and it works... This. I'm not saying systemd is the best answer, but I really think sysadmins could learn a thing or two from developers. Nearly every custom init script I've ever seen has bugs, and isn't portable between systems. Where are the unit tests? Code reuse? Focus on maintainability/readability? Shell scripting used t…

Sysadmins would say that developers could learn a lot from them. Like, documentation, maintaining backwards compatibility, sane upgrade processes ...

Don't throw stones in glass houses and all that. We all could stand to learn things from other people.

Sure, sysadmins could stand to be better programmers, but software developers tend to forget that software is just a tool, and sysadmins use it like a tool. They just want to get in, get out, and move on to the next problem, so for them, certain best practices in software development aren't all that attractive.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#33
post #29

I'm one of the people who jumped ship to OpenBSD in the last year or so. I think I first touched a Linux machine in 1997 or 1998. systemd has been part of the reasons I did that for precisely the same reason. There is a lot of development in the ecosystem dominated by Freedesktop.org, Gnome and (to some degree) large commercial players like RedHat and SUSE. It's more efervescent than it's ever been. Fifteen years ago…

> I'm one of the people who jumped ship to OpenBSD in the last year or so.

Ha. FreeBSD here.

And so long as you get the right hardware, I find BSD to be far simpler than linux distributions out there.

Ports? Beautifully elegant and simple. Configurable. Magnitudes easier than configuring rpm/debs.

Getting a package approved in debian? Alioth? No offense, the wiki, all these pages on the debian website - they have no concept they have of "Handbook", in the sense FreeBSD has. It's so adhoc, they're healthy, but they're in denial about how hard they make it for new people. By the time you've taken to time to learn Debian's dev warts, you're apart of the convent and no longer care about fixing the onboarding problems.

But to be fair. I have day to day gripes with FreeBSD just because we're short on the manpower Linux distributions have in excess:

On FreeBSD 10.1, chromium crashing easily, settings doesn't work. Firefox just clogs up and stops working. No skype (CURRENT will be in a better position to since epoll support has been added). No Dropbox (as of now, we don't have inotify, and kqueue may not be able to handle it, don't quote me on that).

I do my 90% of daily routines simpler and better on FreeBSD. If only Google / Mozilla (with all the resources they have) gave someone who could work to fix this stuff.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#34
post #20

One of the more sensible ^rants^ I've read against systemd (it is KISS for some weirdly convoluted definition of KISS). Too bad these naysayers are not/will not be taken seriously.

The naysayers are taken seriously, but they're in the decision-making minority. Linux distro maintainers wanted to move on from SysV Init, and systemd looked promising. Just because the naysayers didn't get their way (and on some distros, they did) doesn't mean that their criticisms aren't noted.

Which distros? Slackware is the only near-mainstream Linux distro I know of that is even possibly not moving immediately to systemd, and even then, the Slackware folks have said that once it becomes too difficult to maintain upstream packages, they'll switch too. They're just being pragmatic about it.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#35
This page's horrible readability is a perfect reflection of the kind of folks that dislike systemd.

Yeah, newcomers to the Linux land without the expertise you guys acquired through 10 years of using Linux, would apparently appreciate how easy it is to manage a server by invoking some lengthy commands they learned through reading the often overly-dense manual instead of `systemctl start/stop x`.

Nowadays some of those so-called "hackers" tend to ignore the part of work that makes the user experience better. They claim that they want simplicity and avoid bloat but most of the times they are just being lazy and not sympathetic to their users.

I'm not saying that things should be dumbed down to clicking GUI buttons on Linux. But if you want your program to become mainstream you need to think about providing good and practical docs and making your program easier to use, even for text-based programs.

Accept that most people would like Bootstrap'ed sites more than yours:

  body
  {
    background-color: #080808;
    color: #ffff70;
    font-family: sans;
  }


That's why I opt for Ubuntu 15.04 instead of 14.04 LTS on my VPS, since 15.04 has systemd.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#36

I don't "hate" systemd either, I just think it's a bad approach. It flies in the face of the "open architecture" concept and stifles innovation. It discourages users from learning about how their operating system works, and it unnecessarily puts too much control of a fundamental component of the OS in the hands of a too-small number of people. None of these reflect the Linux I grew up with. Thus, I am not a fan of sy…

What a completely unsubstantiated load of FUD.

>#notmylinux

oh, you're just a troll. k..

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#37
post #35

This page's horrible readability is a perfect reflection of the kind of folks that dislike systemd. Yeah, newcomers to the Linux land without the expertise you guys acquired through 10 years of using Linux, would apparently appreciate how easy it is to manage a server by invoking some lengthy commands they learned through reading the often overly-dense manual instead of `systemctl start/stop x`. Nowadays some of thos…

Are we really using website design choices as a valid target to discredit someone's opinion on the technical merit of an init system?

Can I use Lennart's inability to buy a properly sized polo as a reason why systemd is bad?

Yeah. The guy has an ugly website. But he has specific points about mistakes that systemd didn't learn from and is repeating. Did he list 'it's too user friendly' as one of those mistakes? In fact, one of his core arguments is that there will actually be an increase in complexity and reduction in user friendliness due to design choices that have been made.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#38
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The naysayers are taken seriously, but they're in the decision-making minority. Linux distro maintainers wanted to move on from SysV Init, and systemd looked promising. Just because the naysayers didn't get their way (and on some distros, they did) doesn't mean that their criticisms aren't noted.

Which distros? Slackware is the only near-mainstream Linux distro I know of that is even possibly not moving immediately to systemd, and even then, the Slackware folks have said that once it becomes too difficult to maintain upstream packages, they'll switch too. They're just being pragmatic about it.

I thought there were others in addition to Slackware, but that pretty much all the distros are jumping ship shows the naysayers don't have enough political oomph.

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#39
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a professional sysadmin, but as a developer with a bunch of virtual servers systemd has only made things far easier. Writing init scripts used to be a real pain, now I can set up a unit file in two minutes and it works... Maybe there's something to be said for "sysadmins who want to be able to model the entire boot process and run-state in their head" but with correct information about dependencies and so on,…

> Writing init scripts used to be a real pain, now I can set up a unit file in two minutes and it works... This. I'm not saying systemd is the best answer, but I really think sysadmins could learn a thing or two from developers. Nearly every custom init script I've ever seen has bugs, and isn't portable between systems. Where are the unit tests? Code reuse? Focus on maintainability/readability? Shell scripting used t…

>I'm not saying systemd is the best answer, but I really think >sysadmins could learn a thing or two from developers.

>Nearly every custom init script I've ever seen has bugs, and >isn't portable between systems.

Nearly every custom init script is written by a developer for the product you desperately have to run because development wanted it, not bothering to give us sys admins time to look into the: packaging, configurability, operability and if a custom module/cookbook/playbook needs to be written.

>Where are the unit tests? Code reuse? >Focus on maintainability/readability?

If we were given the time, it would be there. My deadline for almost all work I do is "yesterday".

Re: Why I dislike systemd

#40
post #35

This page's horrible readability is a perfect reflection of the kind of folks that dislike systemd. Yeah, newcomers to the Linux land without the expertise you guys acquired through 10 years of using Linux, would apparently appreciate how easy it is to manage a server by invoking some lengthy commands they learned through reading the often overly-dense manual instead of `systemctl start/stop x`. Nowadays some of thos…

1. The readability and typography are (to me) stellar. Would that more websites present information that clearly.

2. The author doesn't dislike systemd.

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