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Can China Be Contained?

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Re: Can China Be Contained?

#21

Post by EdwardDiego »

jseliger wrote: post #3

The number of actual facts in this article is distressingly small. Paragraphs like this: Even the U.S. business community, once Beijing’s staunchest advocate in Washington, has lost some of its enthusiasm for engagement. James McGregor, a former chairman of the American Chamber of Commerce in China and now the China chairman of APCO Worldwide, a business consultancy, recalls helping to persuade U.S. trade association…

> that killed tens of millions of its own citizens

China doesn't have that? It certainly had it.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#22

Post by letitgo12345 »

comrade1 wrote: post #5

It will require a much different strategy than with the Soviets. We don't have a fundamental political difference in belief with the Chinese. The Chinese are ultra-capitalists with a technocracy leadership (although the u.s. is more lead by lawyers than engineers, so maybe there's a conflict there). It's not even clear if a conflict is necessary. The Chinese mostly care about resources and economics in China - they a…

I think the closest historical parallel is Britain and its efforts to contain Germany in the early 20th century. Nuclear weapons will probably prevent a calamity like WW1 though.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#24

Post by dragontamer »

jseliger wrote: post #3

The number of actual facts in this article is distressingly small. Paragraphs like this: Even the U.S. business community, once Beijing’s staunchest advocate in Washington, has lost some of its enthusiasm for engagement. James McGregor, a former chairman of the American Chamber of Commerce in China and now the China chairman of APCO Worldwide, a business consultancy, recalls helping to persuade U.S. trade association…

> tens of millions of its own citizens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

>The Great Leap ended in catastrophe, resulting in tens of millions of deaths.[3] Estimates of the death toll range from 18 million[4] to 45 million,[5] with estimates by demographic specialists ranging from 18 million to 32.5 million.[4]

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#25

Post by ausjke »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #20
qiqing wrote: post #11

This part makes my stomach turn: The West has been in this position before. Optimism about the prospects of transforming an ancient civilization through engagement, followed by deep disillusion, has been the pattern ever since early Jesuit missionaries sought to convert the Chinese to Christianity. Those envoys adopted the gowns of the Mandarin class, grew long beards and even couched their gospel message in Confucia…

> what's wrong with building up a navy? Ask Taiwan and the Philippines how they feel about that.

By the same logic we probably should also ask China about US Navy cruising close to its territory regularly, i.e. how does China feels about that over the years. China has indeed never been a country that is offensive, unlike the west.

China prefers to fighting internally instead historically.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#26

Post by invaliddata »

ausjke wrote: post #25
EdwardDiego wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's wrong with building up a navy? Ask Taiwan and the Philippines how they feel about that.

By the same logic we probably should also ask China about US Navy cruising close to its territory regularly, i.e. how does China feels about that over the years. China has indeed never been a country that is offensive, unlike the west. China prefers to fighting internally instead historically.

Unless never does not apply to any history older than about three decades past, I think Vietnam and India would have serious problems with the characterization that china has not been (militarily) offensive.

That's not to draw any comparison to the history of the us, but china is hardly a paragon of restraint, even in the relatively recent past.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#27

Post by powerapple »

comrade1 wrote: post #5

It will require a much different strategy than with the Soviets. We don't have a fundamental political difference in belief with the Chinese. The Chinese are ultra-capitalists with a technocracy leadership (although the u.s. is more lead by lawyers than engineers, so maybe there's a conflict there). It's not even clear if a conflict is necessary. The Chinese mostly care about resources and economics in China - they a…

Thank god there are Chinese cities in Africa. If they follow the western way and put high paid management there only, there will never be roads. For years western can always go to Africa and say 'oh, so poor, we can help them' to top up their compassion credit.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#28

Post by invaliddata »

curiously wrote: post #17
maguirre wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you realize it or maybe the sarcasm is lost in this medium. However many of the things you just said about China, with the exception of being an authoritarian government, could also be said about the US.

I would rather have US as an authoritarian government than China. I mean do you see how China treats it's own people? It's fucking horrid. the 500 mil Chinese pulled out of poverty line is classic propaganda CCP would love to have you spewing.

It seems pretty clear that china has done a better job in raising the overall circumstances of the poorest of its citizens than many other developing countries over a similar time span. I'm not just talking about a bunch of African basket cases either. Look at India; for all the progress they have made, the poorest of their people live in horrible circumstances, the likes of which one doesn't find in the same enormous magnitude. I'm sure china could have done much worse. I know which country I'd rather be destitute in. Now how much of that is attributable to something like the one child policy where the have essentially mortgaged their future in exchange for fantastic present growth? We will find out eventually.

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#29

Post by DanBC »

ausjke wrote: post #25
EdwardDiego wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's wrong with building up a navy? Ask Taiwan and the Philippines how they feel about that.

By the same logic we probably should also ask China about US Navy cruising close to its territory regularly, i.e. how does China feels about that over the years. China has indeed never been a country that is offensive, unlike the west. China prefers to fighting internally instead historically.

> China has indeed never been a country that is offensive, unlike the west.

Tibet? Korea?

> China prefers to fighting internally

There's a lot of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_wars_and_battl...

Re: Can China Be Contained?

#30

Post by tim333 »

sangnoir wrote: post #19
curiously wrote: post #15

"watching the administration of President Xi Jinping crack down hard on internal dissent while challenging the U.S. for leadership in Asia" but that's exactly Xi Jinping's motive. People watching and making their own conclusions as long as its coming from the citizens. To Chinese public, Xi looks like a straightshooter, standing up for justice and vying for the attention of united states. In reality, the outcome is i…

Empires rise and fall. The British empire at its zenith was impressive as well and was almost unchallenged. Military supremacy follows economic development. I'm curious how the next 100 years will turn out (I'll experience 60+ of those, if I'm lucky), considering the following: - the shift in American demographics (how long will the slightly right-of-center politics hold? To which side of the spectrum will it shift?)…

If you believe the 'singularity' stuff, the changes will dwarf those you mention.
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