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California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

nytimes.com

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Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The primary contribution of agriculture is feeding people, not GDP. The primary value to California of exporting food (which is what most California agriculture is) is the economic activity produced. (Given a global food market with largely equivalent substitute goods, one could argue that the same is true of agriculture that is used for local consumption, as well.)

You say GDP contribution to Californianis more important than supplying food to the state/country/world. I say feeding people and keeping food prices low is more important than that particular economic statistic when looking at the value of water consumption.

Then the nation needs to view it as a national problem rather than a Californian problem. People don't though, instead they point and laugh as they eat our state dry.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary contribution of agriculture is feeding people, not GDP. What does watering one's lawn contribute to?

Is it? A significant proportion of that agriculture consists of luxury crops for export. Nobody's going to starve if the price of water-intensive foods like avocado and almonds increase a little. If you care about feeding the poor, give them money to buy their food. Don't wreck the environment and distort the market with supply-side meddling.

Don't forget raising animals for meat, growing food to feed animals, and growing food for export to feed animals. This accounts for more water than almonds that seem to always be the scapegoat.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#153
post #5

Unfortunately for farmers, urban dwellers far outnumber them. Of course farmers need to devise more efficient ways to water their crops, but I think it's strange urban dwellers don't understand the inelasticity of water for farming. At home one can cut showers from 15 mins down to 5 or two. On the farm it means not planting x acres that year. Without water, locavores will have to become televores. Calif produces food…

Calif produces food for the whole nation.

Yes, but it's not like the rest of the nation can't pick up the slack, just that we export a lot of food from California. For example, there are lots of places in America where cattle are farmed, and cattle farming if water-intensive, so do we really need to be rasing cattle in California? I am OK with paying a bit more to get beef from other states.

California has a huge comparative advantage in the production of some crops like wine grapes and almonds, there is some economic value in preserving a comaparative advantage where one already exists. But we could probably shut down quite a bit of our agricultural production without creating any national drop in food security, it would just make California a bit more expensive of a place to live.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#154
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is watering your lawn is a drop in the giant reservoir. If only 20% of the water is being used by residents (in reality, it's a bit less) and you pass super aggressive water conservation laws targeting residential use such that it's reduced by 50% then you've conserved a whopping..... 10% In contrast, a mere 12% increase in agriculture efficiency gets you the same win. Targeting residents to curb the water…

While this is true for the big picture, it's still fucked up that the status quo is for most everyone to have a well-watered lawn. And the response of "cities" like Los Angeles is to subsidize people's servants completely redoing their yards! Implementing water restrictions is incredibly easy - you declare "no outdoor water usage except on these two days of the week after 5pm" and issue fines to people who don't comp…

Mountain View, and probably many other cities in California, have already made that declaration, and other restrictions.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#155
So I'm hearing a lot of misinformation here in these comments. I recently attended a talk [1] by the Chair of the CA water board (Felicia Marcus) and it was very illuminating.

!!! WATCH THIS VIDEO LINKED AT THE END !!!. It was for MIT club of NorCal and is like 2 hours, so its far more technical/deep and BALANCED than anything you'll find on CNN/nytimes/etc.

I'll try to summarize some of her points here that I think would be useful and relevant, but really you should watch her speak in that link.

1) We talk about 80% going to agriculture, as if there some single reservoir that we all drink out of. Everyone gets their water from different sources, and they're all suitable for different uses. SF, for example, has an exclusive license to Hetch Hetchy water source. Agriculture is never going to see that and doesn't affect us.

2) There are rural parts of CA that have no water coming out of the tap. She said that was her #1 priority right now.

3) We need lots of water to feed the nation. CA is one of 5 Mediterranean climates in the world, and that makes it suitable to grow all kinds of stuff that doesn't grow anywhere else. 2% GDP is irrelevant because you die without food.

4) As a culture we don't have a connection to agriculture, and it is causing drifts on both sides. The farmers are pointing fingers at urban areas, and vice versa.

5) We have less a rain problem and more a storage problem. 1900-2000 was unusually wet for CA and so we didn't build enough storage for the dry years. Groundwater is actually the most environmentally friendly storage and we get something like 40% normally of our water from it, and 60% now (I think?)

6) We don't have a market planned economy. You can't tell farmers what to grow. There is no 5 year plan -- this isn't china.

7) The state is doing a lot of things to combat these issues all simultaneously. The issue is extremely complex and multi-pronged. You'd likely be impressed with all the projects under way.

8) Ground water rights can be changed at a local county level very quickly. They have a huge amount of power and need to be first to do so. It's a bit of a mexican stand off between them, but this is where culture and local advocacy can make a difference. Santa Cruz has done really well with this, and I think San Diego as well.

9) CA does have the power to come down on people/counties/companies that they view as using excessive resources... it's built into the CA constitution. All they need to do is threaten and people change. They've done that several times.

10) We say oh, my shower is like 1% of the problem. Getting water at a restaurant is 0.5% of the problem. It's still water, waste is waste, and we need everything we can get.

11) We don't reuse/capture water efficiently or at all. Especially floods. To combat this we need lot of small efficient that add up. Capturing storm water is one example. Recycling waste water is another, and there's an additional 10% that can be gained through forrest management in the sierras better directing the melting snow run off (!).

12) CA is seeing the mistakes of San Paulo and Australia and trying not to repeat them. They're collaborating world-wide on these issues... lots of Israeli tech is making its way to desalination. Smart people are being resourceful and not isolationist about this.

WATCH THIS: [1] http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/mitcnc/videos/31839-califo...

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#156
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true for the big picture, it's still fucked up that the status quo is for most everyone to have a well-watered lawn. And the response of "cities" like Los Angeles is to subsidize people's servants completely redoing their yards! Implementing water restrictions is incredibly easy - you declare "no outdoor water usage except on these two days of the week after 5pm" and issue fines to people who don't comp…

I'm sorry, but have you ever been to Los Angeles? Where is this mythical place you're talking about with these mythical people? I live in Los Angeles proper, and the majority of my neighbors already had low-water lawns to begin with. Those that don't (including me because the owners of the house I rent don't want to change it) are basically just letting the lawn die because we understand the situation and really aren…

Actually yes, I'm on the west side right now.

I'm in one of the few buildings without grass. The sidewalk across the street is damp every morning. Walking around, I often see pools of runoff that have persisted throughout the day. Most all the lawns are still being trimmed every single week. Maybe this neighborhood is just terrible.

Are there actually any restrictions besides http://www.lawaterrestrictions.net/current-water-restriction... ? To someone used to the Northeast's late-summer restrictions those are laughable - you can still water your lawn every day of the week!

Good on you for letting your lawn wither, but I assure you that the out of touch culture is alive and well.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#157
post #8

About time. Agriculture is using 80% of the water, but accounts for a mere 2% of the GDP (4% of employment)[1]. There's no reason we should be squeezing our rural and suburban centers that fuel the overwhelming majority of our economy while giving farmer's a free pass to suck the state dry of usable water which is mainly used for exported profits and not sustaining local industries. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/…

> Further, if the point is food production and not food profit for the nation then the focus should be on producing the most water efficient foods (per calorie) not the most profitable foods produced under an assumption of free or near free water.

Wait, why are we measuring this per calorie? That's a terrible way to measure what should be produced.

The US is still the fattest country in the world[1]. We don't need more calories, we need more nutrients. There are several measures of nutrient density[2]. Fats/sugars/proteins/alcohol (the things that contain calories) are macronutrients, so they are a component of nutrient density, but Americans are getting plenty of these.

Optimizing incentives for calories would drive prices in a direction such that Americans will get even fatter. Let's not make this mistake.

[1] http://www.worldobesity.org/site_media/library/resource_imag...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient_density

EDIT: The popular discussion on this subject often centers around almonds, the comparison being that beef has a much higher calorie efficiency per water. If you look at nutrient density, almonds fare much better.

EDIT 2: Australia has a standard for calculating nutrient density, which has been codified in the Nutrient Profiling Scoring Calculator (NPSC)[3].

[3] http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/industry/labelling/pages/nut...

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#158
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarce resources need to be exposed to market forces. The purpose of markets is to allocate scarce resources and price them appropriately.

Even when those resources could be bought by someone who will waste them? We're not talking about something like gold here, we're talking about a resource that is essential for human life. Would you really want someone who's wealthier than you to buy all the water around you just because they can?

No, I certainly wouldn't! Still, the drought is on my mind, and while I recognize the need to conserve, I am frustrated by my government's response to the problem so far.

So far, we've been responding to the crisis in a way that doesn't really allow people to make good trade-offs. For instance, I went to my parents house in a nice warm place, after a week in the fog, and my kids kind of wanted to play in the inflatable pool. My parents were bummed but asked us not to, because they're under mandates to cut back.

To feel better, we all went out for california raised beef burgers and gorged on walnuts. Several dozen inflatable pools of sheer deliciousness, all externalized.

Just kidding (sort of) about that last part, but this is the frustrating thing. Nobody is saying we can't use any water, we just can't use unlimited amounts of it. If someone goes vegan, avoids other water-heavy food sources, and doesn't wash his or her car, well, is it so bad that they might water a small patch of lawn or fill up the inflatable pool now and then?

This is what is so nice about markets, when people have to pay what something actually costs, they are unlikely to use as much of it.

Except, of course, you can now and then end up in a situation where someone rich buys "all" the water. One way to handle this is tiered rates, where it's cheap for the first bit, and perhaps very expensive after that.

http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=168

Looks like the first 4 units (1 unit = 748 gallons per month) is $5.45, so once you get the tap flowing (sunk cost), I'd say that drinking water is "free". Even showers are pretty cheap.

The problem is that it doesn't go up by much. After those first 4, it's only $7.31. Still pretty cheap for something that we are supposedly in desperate need of.

I suppose we could just crank up that second tier - in theory, that would keep showers, drinking water, and so forth affordable, while properly pricing the use of water to produce burgers, walnuts, swimming pools, lush gardens, golf courses, and clean cars. Now that I think of it, rich people already consume more of that sort of thing anyway...

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#159
post #8

About time. Agriculture is using 80% of the water, but accounts for a mere 2% of the GDP (4% of employment)[1]. There's no reason we should be squeezing our rural and suburban centers that fuel the overwhelming majority of our economy while giving farmer's a free pass to suck the state dry of usable water which is mainly used for exported profits and not sustaining local industries. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/…

Not one comment about water infrastructure? The great water technologies of the past fifty years have been completely ignored by the tech elite. Where does San Francisco get its water? It is crazy to me that we are proposing cutting back on water use when the real problem is a huge portion of the water we have is not being used effectively. We would not be having this discussion about power, sewer, gas or any other utility, but for some reason we see no value in capturing and retaining this resource. Why?

EDIT - I am mainly talking about Dams and water storage.

Re: California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers

#160
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water is a scarce resource in this case. You don't exactly let the "wealthy" buy off everything they can just because. Scarce resources need to be regulated my friend.

Scarce resources need to be exposed to market forces. The purpose of markets is to allocate scarce resources and price them appropriately.

This comment is ridiculous. The horrible water situation in CA is a result of years of water being exposed to market forces. Do you actually feel no sense of cognitive dissonance between your beliefs and this very clear reality or are you just being disingenuous?
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