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Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

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Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#81

Post by happyscrappy »

hga wrote: post #67
vollmond wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other part is the excessive hero worship, also driven by the War on Terror. The "support the troops" conversation stopper has extended to law enforcement and any other public-facing service job, to the point where it's impossible to have a civil debate about the military, police, teachers, or anyone, without offending someone just for bringing up the topic.

And law enforcement weren't "heroes" before 9/11??? Now, I'm probably older than you, old enough to have watched the first run of hagiographic Efrem Zimbalist, Jr. F.B.I. TV series that ran until 1974, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F.B.I._(TV_series) ), but I assure this is nothing new. E.g. I can remember more than a few debates I had with co-workers in the '90s on the War on Drugs, I said we could have that,…

Your definition of police state is an insult to people who have actually lived in one.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#82

Post by maxerickson »

rayiner wrote: post #46
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

US police services need to move to "policing by consent" (also often called "community policing"). The concept is that a police service is ineffective if they do not have the broad support of the local community, and the police service should adapt to service the community they have (not the community they'd want to have). If a bunch of gangbangers "hate" cops then that's fine. But when the good law abiding citizens…

I don't know if we'll ever achieve that here in the U.S. Most of these issues arise in heavily black and Hispanic neighborhoods with high crime. These folks have very little faith in the police and for good reason. The understanding that police are there to protect rich white people from poor black and Hispanic people has gotten less overt and less official since the 1960's, but it's still there to a degree, especial…

Camden is touting their experiment with it as a success.

I don't know how true that is or if Camden is typical enough that the experience would generalize.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/us/politics/obama-to-limit...

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#83

Post by bdcravens »

rmxt wrote: post #49
bdcravens wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edit: to be clear, I'm talking about the video specifically, not the parent comment's general perspective. Watching the video, while has was telling the girl to get on her face, several teens were encroaching and yelling. The one he chased with gun out came up behind him and made a motion that looked like he was feinting pulling out a gun. I think the events in Ferguson and otherwise and causing some to become a bit…

When you say "some" and "they" do you mean "black people"? I only ask because the parent comment specifically talks about minorities. If so, that's a unfortunate dichotomy that you have created. If anything, the safer generalization is that cops are the ones that have a history of acting recklessly in their interactions with non-police. Especially considering that they are civil servants, whose job is to protect all…

Sorry, I was only discussing the video; I failed to read the parent comment fully (which was quite bigoted). Looking at the video specifically, you see a lot of brazen action, and you have to wonder what is emboldening them.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#84

Post by brightsize »

hga wrote: post #25
joesmo wrote: post #9

It doesn't matter what attitudes change, the community relationship between police and citizens will not be repaired till at least my generation is dead (mid 30s) but more likely till at least three current generation of young people is dead. And that only if dramatic changes happen now. Otherwise things will continue to degrade and the police will continue to arrest and kill innocent people for committing crimes tha…

Given how they slaughter dogs when given a chance, sometimes even when the dogs are running away, your thesis looks awfully good.

Hell, a cop executed one of my Dad's old cats one night here in this small town. He allegedly thought it looked "rabid" (it was just ancient, maybe drooling, very, very slow-moving). Call animal control? Call a vet? To hell with that, he wanted to have some shootin' fun, and of course he got away with it, stopping the fearsome, waddling, threat-to-nobody beast in its tracks. In a residential neighborhood. Big man, that cop.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#85

Post by stonogo »

bdcravens wrote: post #71
stonogo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your single example means nothing. There are (at conservative estimate) around 750,000 law officers w/ arrest powers in the USA. 114 were killed in 2014. This is a 0.016% mortality rate -- and this number includes accidental deaths while on duty. This is about the same percentage as murders only in Chicago -- meaning the population of Chicago is, on average, in more danger just existing than any given police officer…

First off, statistics: For your analogy to be fair, you'd need to compare mortality among police in Chicago, not nationwide police mortality, since an officer, like a citizen, is under great threat in Chicago than rural Kansas. Even so, you can compare the job to anything, and find statistics that sound more impressive. More children die via drowning in swimming pools than by gunshot wounds, but that doesn't mean tha…

Nobody is saying the job is completely free of danger. We're saying they don't need MRAPs and assault rifles. You don't get to exclude the middle ground here.

And fuck your passing dig at accusing me of armchair activism; I've served in actual wars, as infantry, where I was less well-equipped than some of these suburban police departments. I am fully aware that danger exists, and what it looks like. It is being overstated.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#86

Post by josai »

happyscrappy wrote: post #81
hga wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And law enforcement weren't "heroes" before 9/11??? Now, I'm probably older than you, old enough to have watched the first run of hagiographic Efrem Zimbalist, Jr. F.B.I. TV series that ran until 1974, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F.B.I._(TV_series) ), but I assure this is nothing new. E.g. I can remember more than a few debates I had with co-workers in the '90s on the War on Drugs, I said we could have that,…

Your definition of police state is an insult to people who have actually lived in one.

Just because it's not yet the worst police state ever doesn't mean people can't voice concerns.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#87

Post by dllthomas »

bdcravens wrote: post #24
joesmo wrote: post #9

It doesn't matter what attitudes change, the community relationship between police and citizens will not be repaired till at least my generation is dead (mid 30s) but more likely till at least three current generation of young people is dead. And that only if dramatic changes happen now. Otherwise things will continue to degrade and the police will continue to arrest and kill innocent people for committing crimes tha…

> The irony is, of course, that being a police officer is not even a very dangerous job. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/10/us/mississippi-police-officers... Routine traffic stop. Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request. > That leads me to conclude they're just a bunch of cowards with an inferiority complex out to hurt people to make themselves feel better. I'm sure cops exist who…

"Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request."

Pretty sure developer isn't the line for "very dangerous job".

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#88

Post by shit_parade2 »

joesmo wrote: post #9

It doesn't matter what attitudes change, the community relationship between police and citizens will not be repaired till at least my generation is dead (mid 30s) but more likely till at least three current generation of young people is dead. And that only if dramatic changes happen now. Otherwise things will continue to degrade and the police will continue to arrest and kill innocent people for committing crimes tha…

One reason the US has a policing problem is because of the reflexive and thoughtless defense people give them.

How many more Chicago Blacksites, 'accidental' deaths while in custody, and shooting and killing of unarmed citizens do people need to have happen before the cop apologists stop their hero worship excuse making?

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#89

Post by hga »

happyscrappy wrote: post #81
hga wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And law enforcement weren't "heroes" before 9/11??? Now, I'm probably older than you, old enough to have watched the first run of hagiographic Efrem Zimbalist, Jr. F.B.I. TV series that ran until 1974, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F.B.I._(TV_series) ), but I assure this is nothing new. E.g. I can remember more than a few debates I had with co-workers in the '90s on the War on Drugs, I said we could have that,…

Your definition of police state is an insult to people who have actually lived in one.

You have a point due to my lack of clarity, which I've corrected above.

This was in the context of the society they were helping to create for their children and grandchildren. We're not there yet, and the reaction to the gun grabbers of that time (Americans arming themselves like never before after 9/11 and its response told us we were own our own) suggests there's a strong and developing counter-force developing, but the potential is there. There are certainly too many politicians in high places and other influential members of our ruling class who'd like to institute a full blown police state. That's one reason I'm interested in Strange Loop controversy.

ADDED: as for how things are today, since I can and do legally carry concealed almost every time I walk out the door, and how my police department has changed since back then, it's my considered opinion I am in more danger from the police than criminals. None of the latter have ever pretended to try to run me down with their car.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#90

Post by josai »

angersock wrote: post #16
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet female cops get by just fine without high and tights.

Have you seen catfights? If they're serious about this "warrior" business, they should probably get buzzed down too. EDIT: Wow hivemind. It's for a similar reason that, in less hostile environments (say, machine shops), people with long hair put their hair back. It's like nobody's ever seen Bomb Girls before (much less any of the much more graphic images of, say, lathe accidents). I'm not suggesting that the warrior…

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