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Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

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Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#71

Post by bdcravens »

stonogo wrote: post #41
bdcravens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irony is, of course, that being a police officer is not even a very dangerous job. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/10/us/mississippi-police-officers... Routine traffic stop. Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request. > That leads me to conclude they're just a bunch of cowards with an inferiority complex out to hurt people to make themselves feel better. I'm sure cops exist who…

Your single example means nothing. There are (at conservative estimate) around 750,000 law officers w/ arrest powers in the USA. 114 were killed in 2014. This is a 0.016% mortality rate -- and this number includes accidental deaths while on duty. This is about the same percentage as murders only in Chicago -- meaning the population of Chicago is, on average, in more danger just existing than any given police officer…

First off, statistics: For your analogy to be fair, you'd need to compare mortality among police in Chicago, not nationwide police mortality, since an officer, like a citizen, is under great threat in Chicago than rural Kansas.

Even so, you can compare the job to anything, and find statistics that sound more impressive. More children die via drowning in swimming pools than by gunshot wounds, but that doesn't mean that gun control discussions are immediately null and void.

I have been places in life, and known people, that have an intense hatred for cops and are happy to express their desire for an open season on them. People that if facing arrest for something small, will use any weapon at their disposal - gun, knife, vehicle - to get away. The fact that someone doesn't know of this world - it's not proof it doesn't exist, but simply a blessing for that person.

There are very, very bad people in this world, that if given the chance would take your MacBook, your iPhone, your iPad, and your money. "But but.. you don't understand! They'd never hurt me! I retweet about social injustice!"

There's some very, very bad cops who abuse their authority. But for someone to say that there's no danger is incredulous.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#72

Post by andyl »

'Within law enforcement, few things are more venerated than the concept of the Warrior.'

Sure in some jurisdictions. But not all.

I work with LE in the field as a paramedic, and in the office as a SW Dev. Lots of agencies. Most of the LE folk have been super professional and very mindful of their public service role. Even in stressful situations.

From what I've seen, most cops are just regular people, not wanna-be soldiers.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#73

Post by maxxxxx »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #7

Cops need to stop dressing like they are mercs in Iraq circa 2004. Tactical vests, cargo pants with a shitload of shit hanging off them-the average (non SWAT) cop now looks like they are ready to go off on a patrol in a hostile village. I'm an Army vet, and cops dressing like that does intimidate me a little bit-I can't imagine that they present the image of a friendly ally to the average person. Men should also grow…

With all that glorification of military and war since 2001 it's no wonder cops want to jump on the bandwagon.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#74

Post by Semiapies »

sgnelson wrote: post #53

This is yet one more of the hidden costs of the Afghan and Iraq wars. You have a large population of soldiers, many who come back home after their tours of duty, where they were in effect an occupying force. And then they get a job in law enforcement. They are used too a certain way of doing things in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they bring that culture home with them. Even for those who didn't serve, as the article not…

The vast majority of these police have no military background. It's cargo-cult behavior, not experience.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#75

Post by bdavisx »

nine_k wrote: post #26
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #7

Cops need to stop dressing like they are mercs in Iraq circa 2004. Tactical vests, cargo pants with a shitload of shit hanging off them-the average (non SWAT) cop now looks like they are ready to go off on a patrol in a hostile village. I'm an Army vet, and cops dressing like that does intimidate me a little bit-I can't imagine that they present the image of a friendly ally to the average person. Men should also grow…

As a complete civilian, I'd say that police in all their gear do not look intimidating to me. Mostly it's the posture, the facial expression, the tone of voice that makes someone look friendly (or not). I look at them as I look at construction workers or garbage truckers: this is what they have to wear to do their job, not best-looking, not most comfortable. I can sympathize. How is all this gear useful is another qu…

They don't have to wear all that gear to do their job.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#76

Post by bdcravens »

Jtsummers wrote: post #32
bdcravens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irony is, of course, that being a police officer is not even a very dangerous job. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/10/us/mississippi-police-officers... Routine traffic stop. Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request. > That leads me to conclude they're just a bunch of cowards with an inferiority complex out to hurt people to make themselves feel better. I'm sure cops exist who…

> Congratulations, I think this is the most bigoted and stereotyping post I have ever read on Hacker News. Ever. DamnYuppie: > We have large populations of minorities who feel entitled to behave badly without any consequence because the color of their skin. I dunno. DamnYuppie may be winning. At least joesmo is bigoted against people because of their chosen profession. Unlike DamnYuppie who's bigoted against people f…

Both are pretty bigoted. However, he wasn't attacking a profession, as much as was implying that it's somehow a fact that the majority of the group, simply because of their chosen profession, are racists and cowards. Pure bigotry.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#77

Post by bdcravens »

beat wrote: post #31
bdcravens wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irony is, of course, that being a police officer is not even a very dangerous job. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/10/us/mississippi-police-officers... Routine traffic stop. Pretty sure I've never heard of a developer being murdered during a pull request. > That leads me to conclude they're just a bunch of cowards with an inferiority complex out to hurt people to make themselves feel better. I'm sure cops exist who…

Being a taxi driver is actually more dangerous than being a police officer. http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

Problem: Larger cities have taxis; many smaller communities do not. Every town have police. For your example to be fair, you'd have to restrict the statistics to only cities that have both police and taxis.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#78

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

happyscrappy wrote: post #54
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if there was video of Michael Brown going for the officers gun, would they still riot? That's what causes the problem. Police apologists imagine circumstances that justify their abuse, and are absolutely certain that's what actually happened. If there was a video, I wouldn't imagine. I'd watch and see what happened.

>If there was a video, I wouldn't imagine. I'd watch and see what happened. Well you saw the video of him robbing the store and assaulting the clerk moments earlier but that doesn't bother you? Edit since I can't reply: At least you didn't say "Police murder innocent black child" so that is a start. His actions moments before make the cops story more likely to be true.

I never claimed he wasn't a criminal.

But whatever crime he committed, extra-judicial summary execution seems a bit harsh.

Treating criminals this way doesn't make crime go away. And it breeds an attitude among cops that harms people who never committed even petty crimes.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#79

Post by bdavisx »

rayiner wrote: post #46
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

US police services need to move to "policing by consent" (also often called "community policing"). The concept is that a police service is ineffective if they do not have the broad support of the local community, and the police service should adapt to service the community they have (not the community they'd want to have). If a bunch of gangbangers "hate" cops then that's fine. But when the good law abiding citizens…

I don't know if we'll ever achieve that here in the U.S. Most of these issues arise in heavily black and Hispanic neighborhoods with high crime. These folks have very little faith in the police and for good reason. The understanding that police are there to protect rich white people from poor black and Hispanic people has gotten less overt and less official since the 1960's, but it's still there to a degree, especial…

> Here is the real question: how do you do community policing in the low-income black neighborhoods of Baltimore? How do you rebuild trust?

You arrest and prosecute the perpetrators just as quickly and with just as much or more punishment than the "regular" public would get. And you keep doing that to any cop who breaks the law. You also get rid of (and prosecute) the "good" cops who don't report the bad ones.

IOW you show the community that you (the local government) means business when it comes to ending the problem.

Re: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem

#80

Post by hibikir »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #34
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

US police services need to move to "policing by consent" (also often called "community policing"). The concept is that a police service is ineffective if they do not have the broad support of the local community, and the police service should adapt to service the community they have (not the community they'd want to have). If a bunch of gangbangers "hate" cops then that's fine. But when the good law abiding citizens…

> The concept is that a police service is ineffective if they do not have the broad support of the local community I suspect this has already been pre-co-opted in the United States. Journalists and community leaders and pastors and all sorts of others reflexively support, admire, and praise the police. > A lot of other countries do this, and it works well. They can do it because their culture(s) isn't so toxic.

That's part of the problem. You have a significant percentage of the population, who tend to live close together, that will not question police action. Other similar groups will not expect the police to cause anything but grief.

The expectation of unlimited trust is just as bad for police work as total distrust, because neither is well aligned to what is important: That the police are there to serve the community, not to serve some laws or some ideals. When policemen feel that they are better than other people, nothing good can come out of it.

This is part of the American police's self image too. I can find plaques for sale at the supermarket with inspirational sentences about the superiority of law enforcement above mere mortals.

I can only imagine how those products would fail to sell back home in Spain.

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