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19 days to build a 57-storey tower

bbc.co.uk

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Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#61

Post by mikeash »

jonknee wrote: post #52
melling wrote: post #46

The new World Trade Center took 8 years and is the most expensive building in the world: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/may/11/one-world... Everything done is the U.S. takes more time and costs a lot more money. Consider, for example, that China has constructed 10,000 miles of high-speed rail in about a decade. We still have 0.0 miles. Yeah, yeah, we don't need 10k but we need more than 0. Airports, subw…

And yet we can go outside and safely breathe. Some things are priceless.

I don't see how the two are related. Certainly pollution controls will increase costs a bit, but not have an effect nearly this size.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#62

Post by jseliger »

mikeash wrote: post #58
melling wrote: post #46

The new World Trade Center took 8 years and is the most expensive building in the world: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/may/11/one-world... Everything done is the U.S. takes more time and costs a lot more money. Consider, for example, that China has constructed 10,000 miles of high-speed rail in about a decade. We still have 0.0 miles. Yeah, yeah, we don't need 10k but we need more than 0. Airports, subw…

I live in the DC area and frequently visit Beijing. The DC Metro is currently building the Silver Line, an extension out to Dulles airport and a bit beyond. The first segment of the extension, with five stations, was completed last year after five years of construction. The remainder is planned to be complete in 2019 or 2020... assuming there aren't any more delays. In a similar amount of time, the Beijing subway wen…

I don't know what the hell we're doing in the US

We've substantially and enormously empowered veto players at all levels: http://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B0... , in part due to the influence of Jane Jacobs and her fight against Robert Moses: http://jakeseliger.com/2013/07/03/jane-jacobs-is-everywhere-... .

That being said, there seems to be something about wealthy, industrialized countries that makes local resistance to infrastructure development powerful. Europe and Canada are suffering from the same basic problems.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#63

Post by SCAQTony »

SanFranManDan wrote: post #49
melling wrote: post #46

The new World Trade Center took 8 years and is the most expensive building in the world: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/may/11/one-world... Everything done is the U.S. takes more time and costs a lot more money. Consider, for example, that China has constructed 10,000 miles of high-speed rail in about a decade. We still have 0.0 miles. Yeah, yeah, we don't need 10k but we need more than 0. Airports, subw…

Im not saying that this particular tower is unsafe, but in the US we have loads of regulation. Depending on your political view, this can mean either the US is helping to protect citizens or it means that it gets in the way of business/progress. Having some regulation in place helps prevent things like: http://i.imgur.com/McgeoNa.jpg But that doesn't mean that US isn't over regulated.

WOW! I just looked this up using Tin.eye and the imgur link to locate this fiasco and how it happened.

This event happened in 2009 in Shanghai, China. The location was Block-7 at Lotus Riverside in the Minhang District. The building did not fall due an earthquake but rather due to very poor foundation planning. The coup de grace or death blow came when an underground parking garage was being dug below the building. (Why did not not dig out the garage first?) One worker was killed and no residents had moved in yet. (They want their money back)

Building a sky scrapper in just a few weeks or even months seems pretty rushed and quite ill advised. Each floor would have to be inspected and certified as safe and I don't believe that could be done in under a year.

Here is a page on what went wrong: http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/2010/02/its-n...

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#64

Post by jonknee »

mikeash wrote: post #61
jonknee wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we can go outside and safely breathe. Some things are priceless.

I don't see how the two are related. Certainly pollution controls will increase costs a bit, but not have an effect nearly this size.

We have clean air (any many other nice things!) because of regulation. China can do things faster, but pays a very high cost in public health and safety. The US could also build things a lot faster/cheaper if we didn't worry about the consequences.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#65

Post by snowwrestler »

Here is a great short documentary about a similar "pre-fab" approach to building a new tall building in London:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RgRboBE2Y

I think it took longer than 19 days, but they had more limited space and time to work each day, and (almost certainly) more stringent standards for safety and quality.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#66

Post by snowwrestler »

ori_b wrote: post #55
sp332 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new WTC is one of the most bomb-proof buildings in the world. It is also one of the tallest (even if you don't count the spire). Everything in the US takes more time and costs more money when we're doing it better than everyone else.

Better? Or just more over engineered?

It's over-engineered unless a big truck bomb goes off next to it, or an airliner hits it, or it's subject to a significant earthquake--in which case it will then hopefully be just-right engineered.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#67

Post by mikeash »

jonknee wrote: post #64
mikeash wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the two are related. Certainly pollution controls will increase costs a bit, but not have an effect nearly this size.

We have clean air (any many other nice things!) because of regulation. China can do things faster, but pays a very high cost in public health and safety. The US could also build things a lot faster/cheaper if we didn't worry about the consequences.

Regulation isn't a monolithic entity. The regulations that keep our air clean and our structures safe aren't the ones slowing everything down, as far as I can see.

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#69

Post by anthony_romeo »

mikeash wrote: post #58
melling wrote: post #46

The new World Trade Center took 8 years and is the most expensive building in the world: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/may/11/one-world... Everything done is the U.S. takes more time and costs a lot more money. Consider, for example, that China has constructed 10,000 miles of high-speed rail in about a decade. We still have 0.0 miles. Yeah, yeah, we don't need 10k but we need more than 0. Airports, subw…

I live in the DC area and frequently visit Beijing. The DC Metro is currently building the Silver Line, an extension out to Dulles airport and a bit beyond. The first segment of the extension, with five stations, was completed last year after five years of construction. The remainder is planned to be complete in 2019 or 2020... assuming there aren't any more delays. In a similar amount of time, the Beijing subway wen…

I visited China for the first time last year. I went to Guangzhou with a friend of mine. My friend from there left to study in the US in 2010, and he could barely recognize his own city with all the new districts and buildings.

I ultimately came to the conclusion that the growth in China is real, unlike how it's routinely described in the news in the US. Though I did meet an Irish business owner (who lived there for nearly two decades) who expressed doubt that these buildings would ever be filled to sufficient capacity. Ultimately we don't have access to all of the data which would shed light on China's current affairs.

Regardless, I live in the Boston area now. The MBTA is a complete embarrassment compared to what is in Guangzhou. Even so, the MBTA is purchasing the next supply of Red Line trains (which are several decades old now, and routinely breaking down) from China. It's been planned for several years, yet it's still going to take until 2017 to get these trains rolling in Boston!

Even if the doomsayers are correct and the Chinese economy crashes in the next year or so, it should be noted that (a) this would be a global economic recession and that the US would not be immune to this (since many of the buildings in China are funded by Wall Street speculators), (b) they have the capital to actually help their recovery (as opposed to the bulimic fiscal policy we had in 2008 and still have in the US today, funding billion-dollar military campaigns and social programs created with the 1930's and 1960's in mind, while routinely gutting our own tax revenue), and (c) they'll have already built a modern infrastructure to empower their recovery (instead of the US's aging infrastructure that nobody want to pay to fix).

Re: 19 days to build a 57-storey tower

#70

Post by innguest »

snowwrestler wrote: post #66
ori_b wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better? Or just more over engineered?

It's over-engineered unless a big truck bomb goes off next to it, or an airliner hits it, or it's subject to a significant earthquake--in which case it will then hopefully be just-right engineered.

The original WTC towers were already over-engineered. They could not be brought down by a plane hitting them, just like previously a plane hit the Empire State Building and it also did not collapse. That's why they needed the planes plus [redacted] in order to bring the towers down.
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