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Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

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Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#271

Post by jblow »

notNow wrote: post #251
jblow wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am dismayed by the way all the reactions on Twitter are piling on with outrage and/or relating similar experiences. Inverting a binary tree is pretty easy. It is not quite as trivial as FizzBuzz, but it is something any programmer should be able to do. If you can't do it, you probably don't understand recursion, which is a very basic programming concept. This isn't one of those much-maligned trick interview questio…

Can you confirm that actually inverting a BT or solving other similarly probs would have been part of his future job at Google? If so, they were consistent in disqualifying him in spite of his awesome track record, fame or "street cred" but if not, I can't really justify or defend this type of ceremonial or bureaucratic gotcha interview questions as they are just useless and can be abused by the interviewer to reject…

I have no idea what the job was.

But my point is this is not a bureaucratic gotcha question. If you can't do this task, you don't really know how to program well. Sorry but that's just how it is. It's like failing FizzBuzz.

There is this culture of crappy software that has happened lately, especially in the Web world, and it is really quite lamentable. I believe that a very large positive impact would be made on the world -- due to the extreme prevalence of software these days -- if more people would take seriously the idea of software creation as a craft with a very high skill ceiling, and work diligently to improve their understanding and their skills.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#272

Post by hartator »

jowiar wrote: post #239
sshumaker wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have left with the wrong impression. If you ask Googlers or Xooglers alike, most agree that the people here are actually the best thing about Google. Like anywhere else, there are some bad apples, but compared to most other places the people here are on average more talented, nicer human beings and more helpful. Certainly compared to your typical startup or other BigCo. In my nearly 3 years here, that…

As far as my specific interviewers are concerned, I liked 7 of the 8 as individuals, which is great. What I didn't like was the company felt like a monoculture. Same schools, same majors, same pre-education background. Everybody looks the same, dresses the same, etc. The process, on the other hand. Ugh. I have zero respect for Google as a company after that. It starts with the standard phone screen/day-long onsite/ha…

What was their wording for "WTF are you waiting for"? This story felt like abuse.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#273

Post by npkarnik »

dguaraglia wrote: post #133
philip1209 wrote: post #20

What's the due diligence like on the hiring side during an acquihire by Google?

In my very limited experience? None. They just trust the company they acquired to have filtered you properly. They do ask for references (like academic records and so on) but that was about it. Without discussing too many details, I believe the issue with Google's recruiting process is it was designed when the company was smaller and it follows the philosophy that anyone that goes through the hiring process should be…

Hmm, it depends a lot on the size/type of company and reason for acquisition. If it's closer to a acqui-hire where the employees of the "acquired" company cease development on whatever they were doing and eventually just get staffed on a Google project, then they will MOST LIKELY do technical due diligence on each team member. It's common for only part of the team to get an offer to join.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#274

Post by Alupis »

sremani wrote: post #219
Alupis wrote: post #70

Has no one stopped to question what Google may have been looking for in a candidate? The OP has written some great apps, sure, but there is a huge difference between writing a package manager for Mac (among other Mac/iOS apps and utilities) and writing incredibly complex, highly performant algorithms for say search indexing, machine learning, ai, etc... In that context, knowing CompSci basics like Binary Trees (usual…

There is no slander in his tweet, he reported the FACT, may be a tad-bit dramatic, but FACT none the less. I just cannot understand why people think, Job seekers should cower down in public in fear not getting a future offer. To the hell with it, speak your mind, live like a boss even it means you make a little less financially, its better than being a rich coward.

> There is no slander in his tweet, he reported the FACT, may be a tad-bit dramatic, but FACT none the less

What facts are you talking about? The "facts" coming from half the parties involved? The "facts" coming from an upset and irrationally thinking person who's caught up in the moment?

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#275

Post by jowiar »

hartator wrote: post #272
jowiar wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as my specific interviewers are concerned, I liked 7 of the 8 as individuals, which is great. What I didn't like was the company felt like a monoculture. Same schools, same majors, same pre-education background. Everybody looks the same, dresses the same, etc. The process, on the other hand. Ugh. I have zero respect for Google as a company after that. It starts with the standard phone screen/day-long onsite/ha…

What was their wording for "WTF are you waiting for"? This story felt like abuse.

The exact exchange:

Google: "Just checking in to see if you have an update for me? Can we set a time to speak on Friday?"

Me: "I decided to pass on [OTHER OPPORTUNITY]. I let my manager know about the offer last Thursday. I am out at a conference this week, and we're going to discuss options on Friday.

Does end-of-the-day Friday work for you? 5? 6?"

Google: "I need to speak to you in the morning on Friday.

if you are passing up [OTHER OPPORTUNITY, misspelled] why are we waiting till Friday. Can we talk now?"

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#276

Post by sjg007 »

danielvinson wrote: post #248
sshumaker wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have left with the wrong impression. If you ask Googlers or Xooglers alike, most agree that the people here are actually the best thing about Google. Like anywhere else, there are some bad apples, but compared to most other places the people here are on average more talented, nicer human beings and more helpful. Certainly compared to your typical startup or other BigCo. In my nearly 3 years here, that…

In my experience pretty much everyone is excellent, apart from the lower level non-engineering managers. These tend to be grads from top schools who have zero previous work experience. I encountered at least three or four in my time at Google who were just out to prove themselves and get promotions and regularly threw their teams under the bus.

This is an antipattern in management and I would be surprised if they got promoted.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#277

Post by michaelchisari »

fishnchips wrote: post #230

[Ex-Googler here] Truth be told this is a trivial question to be asked during an algo interview and as an interviewer I'd consider this a warm-up. Otherwise it's a rather poor question since either you know how to do it (ie, you have an idea about recursion) or you don't - there aren't too many shades of grey or possible follow-up questions that I can ask to probe the depth of your knowledge. That being said if I ask…

A lot of people require a github to get an interview. But nobody wants to look at what's on the github.

I've interviewed hires before, and if I ask for a github, I'm going to take the time to review some of the code, otherwise why would I ask?

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#278

Post by devy »

Alupis wrote: post #120
devy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think like a Google interviewer.

> You think like a Google interviewer. The OP is the type of person that, six months from now would be demanding special treatment because "he wrote Homebrew". Writing a package manager (been done before, a lot of times) is far different from writing machine learning algorithms (new field, blazing the trail for the industry). One requires an engineer, one requires a scientist. The OP flamed out because Google was loo…

Echoing what sseveran said, "You have done an awful lot of speculation here!"

Why do we call them "speculations"? Well, because those were your believes and most likely not the true depiction of who Max Howell is.

Have you worked or interacted with Max at all? I bet you not. If you did, you will see that he's not the egotistical and arrogant person that you depicted. [0]

To me, Max was just really frustrated and venting on the fact that Google passed on him because he failed in a whiteboard session of an algorithmic question, disregarding the fact that he has been proven to be a great developer who can ship code and a track record of teamwork and tremendous contribution to the open source community. And you know what, I am pretty sure Max can solve that whiteboard question with a little bit of preparation. It's unfortunate that Google interview process is designed to judge people on a simple algorithmic question. So, Google's loss on this one IMMO.

While I completely disagree with you on most of your judgements, I do agree with you on one point, that is, it's probably not going to be a fit (scientist vs. engineer). It's okay for companies to screen out experienced developers/engineers on academic knowledge, even though it's silly.

PS: I am not sure where the "90%" came from, but it's not "absurd" to believe considering Google's standard equipment issue has been predominantly Macs in recent years[1].

PPS: Max applied for an iOS developer role not a scientist role.

[0] https://github.com/mxcl?tab=activity [1] http://bgr.com/2013/11/28/mac-chromebook-google-employees/

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#279

Post by pavanlimo »

cellularmitosis wrote: post #242
mathattack wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with what you said if you replaced resume with reputation . Anyone can fill out a nice resume. One of the challenges with Google's interview process [0] is they are very worried about hiring mistakes, and also know that the process is very noisy. As such, they interview a tremendous amount of people for hiring. In addition, they've found it more efficient to just keep a high bar (missing many good hires…

Ah, they are very unlikely to get the top 100, but very likely to get e.g. 100 of the top 200? Now I think I understand the trade off they are going for (e.g. Getting 100 of the top 200 is more efficient and they are "good enough")

Most of those 200 would not even apply for Google knowing their process.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#280

Post by strathmeyer »

Alupis wrote: post #189
emsy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you follow the twitter discussion, it says he applied for iOS tools. I don't know what tools they write but I'd be surprised if someone who manages to write a (pretty good, actually) package manager can't solve the problems in this position.

> If you follow the twitter discussion, it says he applied for iOS tools We cannot just assume that since he applied for iOS something at Google that he's the best fit and what they were looking for. Maybe the tools Google needs built are very CS heavy (hence the "Build us a Binary Tree" question)? Maybe during the interview his arrogant attitude was on full display? Maybe the interview team dug up past episodes of e…

Having the type of work environment where you can't teach someone how to invert a binary tree is not a good quality.
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