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Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

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Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#241
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you practice answering whiteboard questions?

By re-learning computer science concepts you haven't had to use in real life without Googling in a decade.

(I'm at Microsoft, FWIW, every engineering team here does hiring their own way)

My team does whiteboard questions, but we try to keep them practical.

Typically they are the types of problems that we'd expect new engineers to have to look into on their first day. Oftentimes the questions are less "come up and an answer" and more "let's explore this problem domain and see what we can uncover."

As an example, the interviewer will write up on the board a data structure that is too big and has redundant fields in it, and start a discussion about how to optimize that structure. The optimizations go more and more in-depth as the candidate gains experience thinking within the problem space.

Another problem, the interviewer will give an example of a synchronous operation and work with the candidate to break it up into a set of asynchronous calls.

My team tries to avoid "puzzle questions with 1 correct answer".

I do ask simple data structure questions just to test basic programming skills. On occasion someone does make it through who cannot even write a FOR loop.

My standard go to question is "Please do an in order print of this already sorted binary tree."

It is 5 lines of code, and ~80% of candidates who haven't seen a tree in a decade can still figure it out.

IMH the goal isn't to try and trick people, it is to try and see if people can hold a conversation about a technical topic and make valuable contributions to a discussion.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#242
post #15

At a certain point, your resume should speak for itself. The fact that experienced engineers with impressive resumes are put through these types of interviews is insulting and frustrating to the interviewees. Succeeding at these whiteboard questions requires weeks of preparation. You need to practice, practice, practice. After enough practice, you are pretty likely to pass. So ultimately, it is more of a test of "how…

I would agree with what you said if you replaced resume with reputation . Anyone can fill out a nice resume. One of the challenges with Google's interview process [0] is they are very worried about hiring mistakes, and also know that the process is very noisy. As such, they interview a tremendous amount of people for hiring. In addition, they've found it more efficient to just keep a high bar (missing many good hires…

Ah, they are very unlikely to get the top 100, but very likely to get e.g. 100 of the top 200? Now I think I understand the trade off they are going for (e.g. Getting 100 of the top 200 is more efficient and they are "good enough")

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#243
post #70

Has no one stopped to question what Google may have been looking for in a candidate? The OP has written some great apps, sure, but there is a huge difference between writing a package manager for Mac (among other Mac/iOS apps and utilities) and writing incredibly complex, highly performant algorithms for say search indexing, machine learning, ai, etc... In that context, knowing CompSci basics like Binary Trees (usual…

I used to do interviews at Google, and most likely, the interview process just failed in this case. Typically a candidate will do 5 technical interviews, where the Google engineers can ask basically anything they want to (eg. invert a binary tree in this case) and score the candidate. If the candidate trips up on one of these interviews, that can be enough to reject them. The process will sometimes randomly reject qualified people.

Additionally, I think people have a mis-perception of the skills required to work at Google:

> writing incredibly complex, highly performant algorithms for say search indexing, machine learning, ai, etc...

...

> Google was looking for a Computer Scientist here, not just another developer

This is not really the case. The large majority of positions are for basically "just another developer" to maintain an internal Java tool, or some web UI, or whatever. They are complex in that they have many dependencies and often lots of legacy code, but not all to different from Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, or any company with a large code base. In my several years at Google, 0-5% of my time was spent coming up with complex algorithms.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#244
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took CS 101 classes almost a decade ago, and since then, I have never once needed to write a binary search tree outside of an interview. I think "CS Fundamentals" are really just "abstract concepts used to teach programming", and calling them fundamentals is disingenuous.

Maybe you're just not doing serious programming. Most people I know implement data structure searches quite often. If you're writing scripts, or JS code for web pages or something like that, then maybe you don't use CS stuff, but ... are you able to write a web browser if you had to? Are you able to write an operating system or navigational software for a spacecraft? If not, then maybe just see this as revealing sect…

[deleted]

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#245
post #30
post #3

Interviewing is stressful and all, but if the guy's reaction to not getting hired is to flame on twitter, not hiring might've been the right call.

If the tweet is accurate in its implication that he didn't get hired because he couldn't invert a binary tree (honestly, I don't even know what that means) on a whiteboard, then I'd say the tweet is totally justified. On the other hand, if it was a complex and reasoned decision that he's summarizing badly, then yeah, good call on their part. Context is king here, and we have little.

Slightly off-topic but I always found it infuriating to call binary trees "binary" when some vertices have a degree = 3. :P

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#246
post #15

At a certain point, your resume should speak for itself. The fact that experienced engineers with impressive resumes are put through these types of interviews is insulting and frustrating to the interviewees. Succeeding at these whiteboard questions requires weeks of preparation. You need to practice, practice, practice. After enough practice, you are pretty likely to pass. So ultimately, it is more of a test of "how…

At what point during one's career should one simply be hired at face value and be exempt from interviewing? After 10 years? 20? 30?

"I see your resume says you've been writing software for 30 years, and wrote this really well known tool. Wellllll....That's good enough for me. You're hired!"

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only whiteboarding interview processes actually weeded out false positives. In practice, they select for people with good memorization skills. If you can remember the details on a ten dozen different algorithms and data structures, you can pass one of these without having a single lick of creativity or skill. I say this as an employee who has worked alongside many unskilled drones who made it past the algorithmic…

That's not what the interview process is like at all. They're more interested in how you approach real world issues (the questions I got asked were conceivably real-life issues a company like Google would face with its products). If you can solve that issue by applying efficient and well understood data structures and algorithms, then that indicates you understand the problem space and solutions that may apply. It's…

> It's not like they get you in a room and ask you to draw a linked list or a binary tree.

And yet the OP was turned down for not being able to invert a binary tree (based on limited information, etc etc.)? What do you feel that is, if not a "whiteboard this algorithm" question?

As for many of the other companies who try and emulate Google - this is exactly what they do.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#248
post #66

Last week I walked away from a Google offer that included a 70% raise. A large portion of this was a rather dehumanizing interview process, along with the realization that the process doesn't select for people I want to work with, and weeds out most people who I do. I managed to do just enough in my interviews to squeak through, but in doing so realized that it wasn't for me. Walking through the cafeteria made me fee…

I think you may have left with the wrong impression. If you ask Googlers or Xooglers alike, most agree that the people here are actually the best thing about Google. Like anywhere else, there are some bad apples, but compared to most other places the people here are on average more talented, nicer human beings and more helpful. Certainly compared to your typical startup or other BigCo. In my nearly 3 years here, that…

In my experience pretty much everyone is excellent, apart from the lower level non-engineering managers. These tend to be grads from top schools who have zero previous work experience. I encountered at least three or four in my time at Google who were just out to prove themselves and get promotions and regularly threw their teams under the bus.

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#249
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have previously mentioned hallway discussions at Google routinely devolve into bragging about SAT scores and GPAs. Nothing says Google must accept sub-par technical people, but Google fails to realize you don't have to be the top 0.0001% in absolute algorithms intelligence to do great work. Google's basic theme seems to be "you must be low latency ultra smart in our narrow interest areas" to pass an interview…

> People have previously mentioned hallway discussions at Google routinely devolve into bragging about SAT scores and GPAs. I've been at Google for 3.5 years (in the NY office) and have never heard this. I don't think I've ever even seen anyone wear a college t-shirt/sweater.

It's probably a pathological case centered around the mountain view office: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5534904 / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3473308

Re: Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but...

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the interview process is like at all. They're more interested in how you approach real world issues (the questions I got asked were conceivably real-life issues a company like Google would face with its products). If you can solve that issue by applying efficient and well understood data structures and algorithms, then that indicates you understand the problem space and solutions that may apply. It's…

> It's not like they get you in a room and ask you to draw a linked list or a binary tree. And yet the OP was turned down for not being able to invert a binary tree (based on limited information, etc etc.)? What do you feel that is, if not a "whiteboard this algorithm" question? As for many of the other companies who try and emulate Google - this is exactly what they do.

> And yet the OP was turned down for not being able to invert a binary tree

Your source is a series of salty tweets.

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