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The real scars of Korean gaming

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Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#101
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where? Here? Reddit? Haha, probably pointless as nobody has ever really heard of me. There's dozens of players like me, dozens! Ask whatever you want.

I'm curious how you saw the metagame evolve -- did top players invest in a character or team only to find that they were weaker to an evolved metagame?

Player by player basis. Each one plays differently. It was moreso seeing a bracket, who signed up, then pulling up replays of how they played and reading about them. I made a lot of notes on specific players styles, their timings, unit composition etc. Different strategy for each player + map.

What surprised me was when I went to the tournament, a lot of players had different play styles than what I've studied, which ultimately ruined me.

I'm the guy you're describing. Behind on the meta game. I went for the long game every single time, as safe as possible, so I lost to a lot of early cheese that I didn't even know was possible. Some Korean gave me a 3 stalker push at like the 5:30 or earlier(can't remember). I just sat there wondering to my self "fucking... how?" That moment really stuck with me. You play thousands of games in the top leagues and people still surprise you.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. NBA D-League and minor league hockey salaries aren't exactly anything to write home about either. And then there's football, where the "minor leagues" are 3 years unpaid in college, where you not only have to batter your body without getting paid, you also have to keep up academic performance at the same time (wouldn't it make more sense to make some money playing football trying to get to the NFL, and th…

College football is amateur i.e. not professional. You can go down any sport and find divisions that aren't paid very well, likewise you can find obscure sports that consider themselves professional but aren't very well paid either. I find none of this particularly relevant to the discussion. There are huge differences between how e-sport works and how professional sports organisations work and I guess the people who…

The "amateur" state of college football is a joke. It's the only option. It's a de-facto minor leagues for the NFL. The NFL benefits from being able to scout these players through it without having to draft or pay them earlier. The college athletic departments benefit from having found a revenue stream far larger than any other minor league, yet still not having to pay the players who generate that revenue. Heck, even the athletes in other sports get more real benefit than the college football players, since that's a lot of what's funding their scholarships. The football players are in a weird position of playing in front of 50-90,000 adoring fans every week just like they would in the NFL, but seeing nothing more than a scholarship and some stipends.

You haven't explained the huge differences. The vast majority of post-high-school players in any sport are doing it despite it being either a poor financial decision or simply part of a system that's inherently rigged against those players. The 1% get fame and fortune, the 99% wash out with nothing to show for it but years of little income. E-sport aspirants get even less to show for it? It doesn't seem very meaningful to quibble over the difference between "very little" and "practically nothing."

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#103
post #98
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's that they aren't that fun to play for most people I question if repetitive games like MOBAs are really more fun , or just have an greedy and addicted game mechanics that has been pioneered with the old Diablo 1 (1996). Is it only me that playing MOBA is to let your off steam, clear your mind like playing a simple ego-shooter or passively watching a TV series on your sofa after you come home from hard work. Or…

MOBAs have a killer learning curve. You only know you can be better because for about a month straight when you first start you just /lose/ to people who are obviously better. But you do improve, and you start to feel like a bad ass. Of course then ELO comes in and ensures you only ever win 50% of the time. It is always made obvious that there is another level of skill above what you currently possess.

I prefer single player games with bots which difficulty level is selectable. Playing against 8 "very hard" bots and winning 80% and having the freedom of a real/classic RTS is a lot more rewarding at least to me. Some people prefer repetitive work that the hone ability to perfection in a factory like a human robot. Some prefer always changing gameplay that requires macro and micro management and economic amd military strategy fun to play. If there is a game selection for both groups, everyone would be happy.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College football is amateur i.e. not professional. You can go down any sport and find divisions that aren't paid very well, likewise you can find obscure sports that consider themselves professional but aren't very well paid either. I find none of this particularly relevant to the discussion. There are huge differences between how e-sport works and how professional sports organisations work and I guess the people who…

The "amateur" state of college football is a joke. It's the only option. It's a de-facto minor leagues for the NFL. The NFL benefits from being able to scout these players through it without having to draft or pay them earlier. The college athletic departments benefit from having found a revenue stream far larger than any other minor league, yet still not having to pay the players who generate that revenue. Heck, eve…

Since I'm going to give up my HN activities after this I'll humor you with a response.

While the line between amateur and professional sports have been blurred there are still very real differences. Amateur athletes aren't well compensated, but they are protected from the world of contracts, agents, transfers etc.

People give golf or tennis as examples of professional sports where you can struggle as a professional, which is laughable for anyone who knows sports history. These are sports that because of their status has kept a lot of the original characteristics of amateurism in sports (which from the beginning is a status i.e. upper class thing). Countries which have adopted to a modern amateur approach (with government support, non-profit organisations etc) to those sports have also been punching above their weight.

So what is huge difference between e-sports and other professional sports? For one they don't actually own their sport. I'm not a huge intellectual property fan, but in the case of professional sports it's hugely important. It's the basis for most if not all professional sports organisations. Most of e-sports does not make any salary, if they do or even if the don't they are signed to a team which takes part winnings in tournaments. So you have a situation where it's hard to make a living like in amateur sports, but you don't have the support network or limits of the same. At the same time you have to deal with the contracts and incentives from professional sport, but you don't get the benefits of intellectual property deals and major leagues and therefor salaries.

To some degree this is changing, especially in Korea, but it's still more of a business than a sport. Sports at it's core is competition to find out who is the best. You do that by having fairly similar conditions over a longer time. That's what amateur and professional sport organisations do or, at least, should do.

That said I'm not even sure the discussion should be about if e-sports is a professional or amateur sport, but if it's organized enough to be either or for that matter even considered a sport at all. Is chess a sport? How about poker? Or day trading? Fashion modeling?

I find myself having a severe lack of motivation while writing this, but hopefully it made some sense.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#105
post #74
post #26

I wonder why real-time-strategy (RTS) is dead outside of the StarCraft 2 e-sport niche. RTS used to be the best selling game category around 2000.

So, first of all clearly the RTS in the generic sense isn't actually dead (e.g. MOBAs, tactical wargames, tower defense games). Even the classic C&C-style base building RTS isn't quite dead, a few still get released every year. For example last year there was Planetary Annihilation and Grey Goo. It's just that even the nostalgia factor can't make those games succeed any more. The problem is that the classic RTS isn't…

> e.g. MOBAs, tactical wargames, tower defense games

None are RTS. I prefer the idea of Real Time Tactics for these games, if that makes more sense. Smaller scale individual battles vs large scale building out of armies and large battles.

People like MOBA's because they are too dumb for RTS? Sounds plausible. /s

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a difference in that sports like football and basketball are more limited by the body's abilities to perform. A natural mechanism for moderation. You don't have gaming binges where someone plays football for 18 hours straight without sleeping. But this happens all the time with gaming. Furthermore, most traditional sports also improve one's physiological health. This is not the case for e-sports wher…

Is it true that competitive sports are actually physically healthy? I'm probably just over valuing notable cases, but even things like ballet tear up feet pretty badly. And tennis is known for injuries, isn't it? American football is rough, though I suppose normal football is basically the same as targeted running/sprinting.

It really is a trade off. Like I play football competitively and I know that I'm wearing out my joints, but my muscle mass and bone density is way higher than that of the average female. Muscle mass and bone density have a huge effect on your health later in life. Meanwhile, physically inactive people my age (20s) are losing muscle mass, decreasing their metabolism, increasing their body fat percentage, and so on.

Yeah, I probably could just do weightlifting and cardio on their own (and will sometime have to transition to this) but to be honest football is my primary motivation for doing these things in the first place. A lot of competitive athletes make a successful transition from competitive play to less injurious activities after their careers and are none the worse for it. (Minus NFL concussion cases...)

There are also intangible benefits to playing competitive sports. Being part of a team, working hard to achieve a goal, being challenged, pushing your limits, pursuing something you're passionate about, succeeding at an elite level... Sports can give you unique experiences you'll treasure for your lifetime and also shape you as a person.

It really is an optimization between the all the trade offs. Every year I have to weigh what the sport gives me and what the sport takes away and decide whether it's my last season.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#107
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you saw the metagame evolve -- did top players invest in a character or team only to find that they were weaker to an evolved metagame?

Player by player basis. Each one plays differently. It was moreso seeing a bracket, who signed up, then pulling up replays of how they played and reading about them. I made a lot of notes on specific players styles, their timings, unit composition etc. Different strategy for each player + map. What surprised me was when I went to the tournament, a lot of players had different play styles than what I've studied, which…

How much of top-level play do you think is a "guessing" game ala RPS? If you scout properly & manage properly, can you make it to the mid-game safely everytime, or is it luck of the RPS?
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