Goodbye Sweden • Hacker News Board

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#81

Post by karmazeroed » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:00 PM UTC

There are valid points in this post, eg http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-cities-...

I thought he could almost be talking about London. Diversity is not integration. Lack of integration creates polarisation. A single example: different nationalities have different levels of education, therefore different incomes, therefore different social status, and different accommodation budgets, therefore geographic limitations, and common solutions. In my area, watching east africans try to steal phones off tables in coffee shops is so run of the mill it's boring. Same nationalities, same activities - community effects. Some places in London try to resolve such a situation by mixing up affordable housing with higher-income housing. The situation is then exacerbated, as the higher income people then have to live with what is in their culture unpleasant behaviour. Of course, everything just gets dismissed as racism, when it's in fact about culture, not race, and not applicable to all cultures. The dismissal resolves nothing. If we were talking about moving into the amazon, people would be outraged at the displacement of the locals, but somehow western cultures don't matter, or some sort of penance has to be paid for sins of some previous generations. Until the liberals learn to have a discussion instead of flippant dismissals and name calling, nothing will be resolved, and europe's moving to the right shows that their is something that needs to be resolved.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#82

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:05 PM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #59

draugadrotten wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous border along with the tens of thousands ID-less refugees. It is true that 9 out of 10 that applies for Asylum in Sweden have no ID. Source: http://www.svd.se/nio-av-tio-saknar-id-handling

Nope, that's a willful misreading: "Statistik från årsredovisningen som släpps i dag visar att endast tio procent initialt har godkända id-handlingar som godkänds av verket." Only 10% had ID which were approved on the first go around . It's not clear what portion of the 90% had "no ID" and what portion merely had insufficient ID on their first attempt. Your reading would make it seem like ALL of these immigrants are…

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them threw IDs away, so they can claim they are coming from war regions and seek asylum, instead of being just another part of economic migration (like many people from north Africa/middle east actively try).

I don't blame them, if I would be so desperate, this would be a logical step. The big moral question that opinions differ so much on is: should we in Europe try to help all of them at all costs, even if millions will come?

Personally, I wouldn't mind sharing my resources, if the person I share it with will respect rules I set and learn to speak the language I speak. If not, goodbye.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#83

Post by ajmurmann » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

karmazeroed wrote: post #81

There are valid points in this post, eg http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-cities-... I thought he could almost be talking about London. Diversity is not integration. Lack of integration creates polarisation. A single example: different nationalities have different levels of education, therefore different incomes, therefore different social status, and different accommodation budgets, therefore geog…

I have to agree. I am very concerned by both what's happening in Europe and by concerns being dismissed as racism or xenophobia. I am glad there are others who have a level headed view of this. It's really hard to talk about this topic, because so much of the associated vocabulary has been taken over by actual racists in the past and sets off all kinds of alarm bells.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#84

Post by stral » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

leonk wrote: post #4

Nationalism, xenophobia, and even fascism seems to be on the rise in Sweden - as it is in the rest of Europe. (I'm basing this solely on media coverage and personal observation.) Posts like this show a poor attempt, with entirely subjective observations, to justify some of these attitudes. What's particularly scary is how the poster tries to disguise his views with a belief in socialist politics.

Nationalism is on the rise indeed, the nationalist party has been growing exponentially the last elections, now at ~13%. The reason why it's rising is probably not because swedes particularly like the ideology, but because it is the only party that does not believe that the current situation is feasible (They want to drastically limit immigration so it's equal to that of our neighbors)

I have not seen any rise in fascism. Xenophobia, maybe. By the definition of the word it is the irrational fear of the foreign. The fear is often very rational as immigrants are over-represented in crime, unemployment etc. However people work with generalizations so it is not unlikely that some of the fears might be irrational.

(I'm from and live in Sweden)

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#85

Post by fyrus » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

Trufa wrote: post #80

fyrus wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so damn easy to play the racist card every single time instead of facing reality, isn't it?

No, it's actually the hard way. This is the easy way: Foreigners come to country -> Foreigners need jobs -> Foreigners get jobs -> Less jobs for nationals. That's a very easy reasoning to following, it also gathers a lot of popularity, specially if I'm out of a job o with one I don't like. Explaining why this is not true, or rather why it is much more complex than that, takes a lot of time, effort and understanding o…

If foreigners come to country / need jobs / get jobs only were true. Would you say your little sunshine story applies to other areas of swedish immigration as well? No it doesn't, and that's what people are starting to realise. But once you do and call for actions from the governmment, you're being called a racist from people that still live in a dream world and refuse to wake up. Dreams are easy, truth is hard.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#86

Post by ajmurmann » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:18 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #23

Trufa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely liberal?? Drinking is extremely expensive and regulated, drugs are strictly forbidden. It's full of subsidies and welfare in many aspects of life and society, not sure what you're talking about. It's very liberal in some senses, but calling it a completely liberal society is silly.

He's talking right-wing American English, where "liberal" strongly overlaps with "communist/socialist". Americans are fond of reverting long-standing European political conventions "just because". Historical Liberalism was all about free trade and low taxes? Let's use the term for the party that supports higher taxes and regulations. Red is for socialists, blue for conservatives? Let's swap them! How fun! (Not that i…

The use of the word "liberal" in the US drove me nuts the first few months I lived in the US. I used to be identify myself as a "Liberal" in Germany and constantly felt misrepresented when people were talking about "liberals" in the US. Weird enough the term that comes closest to what I understand as European liberalism is libertarianism. So we had to throw in a syllable to make up for the word that's being used everywhere else having been hijacked. I wonder if some of this is fallout from the insane two party system.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#87

Post by rmxt » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #82

rmxt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, that's a willful misreading: "Statistik från årsredovisningen som släpps i dag visar att endast tio procent initialt har godkända id-handlingar som godkänds av verket." Only 10% had ID which were approved on the first go around . It's not clear what portion of the 90% had "no ID" and what portion merely had insufficient ID on their first attempt. Your reading would make it seem like ALL of these immigrants are…

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them threw IDs away, so they can claim they are coming from war regions and seek asylum, instead of being just another part of economic migration (like many people from north Africa/middle east actively try). I don't blame them, if I would be so desperate, this would be a logical step. The big moral question that opinions differ so much on is: should we in Europe try to help all of…

To be trite and cliche: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your claims make a superficially plausible story, but if you are going to base your moral decisions on something, basing them on these unsubstantiated claims is circular reasoning.

Why do you personally get to set the rules? Vote for people that support the rules that you believe in, but thinking that you can play cultural imperialist, dictating how people should act and what language they should speak, is frankly egotistical.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#88

Post by ceorgecarl » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

leonk wrote: post #4

Nationalism, xenophobia, and even fascism seems to be on the rise in Sweden - as it is in the rest of Europe. (I'm basing this solely on media coverage and personal observation.) Posts like this show a poor attempt, with entirely subjective observations, to justify some of these attitudes. What's particularly scary is how the poster tries to disguise his views with a belief in socialist politics.

So I'm xenophobic for worrying about parts of Malmö where the post office and global carrier services such as DHL no longer operate because they can't guarantee their workers safety and where even the police can't go without the equivalent of a SWAT team? That just doesn't belong in Sweden, no matter how you try to justify it.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#89

Post by rmxt » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:27 PM UTC

fyrus wrote: post #85

Trufa wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's actually the hard way. This is the easy way: Foreigners come to country -> Foreigners need jobs -> Foreigners get jobs -> Less jobs for nationals. That's a very easy reasoning to following, it also gathers a lot of popularity, specially if I'm out of a job o with one I don't like. Explaining why this is not true, or rather why it is much more complex than that, takes a lot of time, effort and understanding o…

If foreigners come to country / need jobs / get jobs only were true. Would you say your little sunshine story applies to other areas of swedish immigration as well? No it doesn't, and that's what people are starting to realise. But once you do and call for actions from the governmment, you're being called a racist from people that still live in a dream world and refuse to wake up. Dreams are easy, truth is hard.

If calling things "racist" is a dream, then so is the sunshine story of blaming everything on "the immigrants" and a "crumbling social fabric." Polarization and naivety are easy, subtlety and deeper understanding are hard.

Re: Goodbye Sweden

#90

Post by ajmurmann » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 2:28 PM UTC

makeitsuckless wrote: post #48

leonk wrote: post #4

Nationalism, xenophobia, and even fascism seems to be on the rise in Sweden - as it is in the rest of Europe. (I'm basing this solely on media coverage and personal observation.) Posts like this show a poor attempt, with entirely subjective observations, to justify some of these attitudes. What's particularly scary is how the poster tries to disguise his views with a belief in socialist politics.

And this reaction is exactly what makes any valid debate in pretty much most of Western Europe impossible. Any time anyone dares to complain about the influence of ultra-reactionary immigrants on the quality and safety of public life, they are immediately branded "nationalist", "xenophobic" or "fascist". Many of us, like myself, are from immigrant backgrounds. There is a world of difference between how our predecesso…

As a German living in the US I actually had the most interesting experience visiting Japan. I always thought of myself as "liberal" when I lived in Europe. However, moving to the US I found myself often times very annoyed by people not obeying common everyday conventions. A dumb example would be people jaywalking right in front of your car, being fully aware that you have to stop because of their jaywalking. When I visited Japan I realized that I actually appreciate fascism to a certain degree, which is a shocking thing to realize. Having a strong shared set of conventions and shared values that help enforce these conventions make everyday life so much more pleasant. When I use light rail in SF, I am constantly strategizing where to position myself relative to other passengers, so that I can get on the train early in order to get a seat. In Japan there are markings on the floor where you have to stand and no one would dare to skip the line. These are small examples of things that make everyday life just so much more pleasant. I don't give a damn what color your skin is or what country you are from, but I agree with you, you better stick to the rules that everyone else adheres to.