Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I quit the tech industry

eev.ee

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 565 posts

Re: I quit the tech industry

#161

Post by rdtsc »

seivan wrote: post #41
probablyfiction wrote: post #17

This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months, the author will probably start thinking about work again, and begin the job search once more. Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she m…

I went through this. Not sure what toxic culture entails, but fucked up deadlines burned me out. Why do all software companies rush so hard.

There are 2 reasons:

1) Developers cannot reliably estimate software timelines. That often comes with experience and age, but many never learn that skill. It is a skill like programming itself. It comes with practice.

2) Break down in communication between management (product managers) and engineers who are writing code.

On the first part. Usually junior software developers simply have not had experience shipping software in a full software cycle. From initial requirements, to design, to deployment, to maintenance. They did projects perhaps in school and homework exercises. Later some eventually learn that they chronically underestimate the time, and just start adding a factor (2x) to what their initial estimate is. That is a step up. But many never learn. There is also a race to the bottom -- the ones that promise shorter timelines get promoted and seen as smarter, more aggressive, better team players. The ones that are realistic are seen as maybe "taking it easy", "not working hard enough". Then everyone sees who gets promoted and show doesn't and learn -- "Aha I need to be like cool cowboy coder Joe over there, he is now running his own department". And so it spreads. Notice how there is often no feedback loop to punish the cool cowboy coder after the project is not delivered on time.

On the second part -- even if there are engineers who know how to estimate the time, nobody asks them. Because the person who promised the feature already played golf with the customer and told them they'll get the new shiny toy in 6 months. That person might have never been a developer, they might have an MBA or where a football coach or something like that. And they usually have a higher position in the company. So they promise and then everyone is pushed to deliver on that deadline. If it fails the failure is usually attributed to the engineers doing the work because they haven't worked "hard enough".

Re: I quit the tech industry

#162

Post by jkot »

lubos wrote: post #147
jkot wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Czech republic

Social insurance, health insurance and income tax will be around 25% on €15k annual salary in Czech republic. And that's assuming they have no children. With children it's even less. source: http://www.penize.cz/kalkulacky/vypocet-ciste-mzdy

Supergross salary rings a bell?

15000*27/12 = 33750CZK/month = 42.5% taxation

Add VAT 21%, petrol tax 52%...

Re: I quit the tech industry

#163

Post by madeofpalk »

johan_larson wrote: post #34
probablyfiction wrote: post #17

This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months, the author will probably start thinking about work again, and begin the job search once more. Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she m…

Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's strenuous or dangerous or dirty or degrading or stressful or boring. If it were actually fun, people would be doing it for free. (Exceptions, anyone?) We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually. Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of…

> Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work.

Unfortunately, I can't pay my rent with 'delightful work'.

Re: I quit the tech industry

#164

Post by mark_l_watson »

I think he did the right thing paying off his mortgage. He does not have to create a successful startup as money runs out: he could switch to part time consulting, which is what I did about 18 years ago. Back then we became debt free and except for short jobs at Google and Webmind Corporation, I consulted for probably an average of 15 to 20 hours a week, remotely. The trick is reducing living costs (we live in the mountains in Central Arizona).

Re: I quit the tech industry

#165

Post by damoncali »

aaggarwal wrote: post #26
probablyfiction wrote: post #17

This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months, the author will probably start thinking about work again, and begin the job search once more. Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she m…

I am going to start working soon. This makes me think if full-time work is really worth it. Wouldn't multiple short-term contracts with regular breaks be able to cut it in today's world? Isn't there people with experience on working on short-term contracts and still living well-off?

I do this, but it's not all roses. Getting and keeping those contracts continually takes effort and time. It's stressful when you don't have much line of sight into the future. And even though you can charge a high hourly rate, it's difficult to work lots of billable hours. I need time for context switching, administrivia, marketing. And the one problem I don't see discussed much: on-demand motivation.

If you work a salary job and don't feel up to it for at the moment, you can coast for half a day and get your shit together. On your own, that's a half a day of lost money. My brain needs breaks, and I just can't do code 40 hours a week and not burn out. I've tried. It just hasn't worked. So that downtime is a requirement, and you lose money for it.

The best part is that a decent programmer can make a moderate income working relatively little. Or you can make a lot of money if you work very hard. It's your choice at any given moment. But don't underestimate the drain of having to work for one to three people at a time, managing your time, and making sure the pipeline doesn't run dry all at the same time. It's pretty annoying/stressful when two important clients have deadlines on the same day. It's not like you can just pull in more help. Or if you can, you then have two problems - you have to go out and find the help, manage it, etc.

I don't think I could bill more than 25 hours a week and keep my sanity. But I'm not exactly a workaholic, and 25 hours a week is a pretty good living.

Milage may vary.

Re: I quit the tech industry

#166

Post by jimwalsh »

Work-Life-Balance, such a great lesson many 20 somethings should make an effort to learn before they destroy the passion they have for whatever it is they are passionate about.

I'd never tell someone to not work hard or to strive for things they want to accomplish. But be able to step back and look at the big picture. Life is too short. Don't forget to enjoy it while you can.

Re: I quit the tech industry

#167

Post by yc1010 »

jahnu wrote: post #138
yc1010 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just pulled a round figure that someone working in tech either in US or EU would be expecting http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer... A lot of HN readers are from US and would be shocked at the tax rates here (on everything) and they further shocked as to how little we get to see for our tax money (no free healthcare etc)

It's very difficult to compare like for like though. For example, US property taxes are a completely different animal than Irish ones and by and large they are massively higher. Healthcare costs are not free in Ireland but they are significantly lower than in the US. And if anything really bad happens to you or your children in Ireland you are financially far more secure. The US always appears to have a much lower ta…

I agree there are so many variables to consider when comparing and the US itself has a wide range of living costs and salaries across the 50 states.

BUT here in Ireland the government has made it an artform in introducing indirect hidden taxes which on a quick glance one might miss and quickly add up. for example: Americans would be shocked not only at our petrol prices but the total cost of running a car (and no the public transport is not great) for example and property taxes have come in and are widely expected to rise year on year and will probably be at US levels in 10 years.

I have been to the US many of times and traveled across almost all the states so it is not just case of "grass is greener on other side"

Re: I quit the tech industry

#168

Post by mvanvoorden »

xienze wrote: post #149
mvanvoorden wrote: post #115

We're not meant to do jobs, this is just some modern made up concept to keep people busy so they don't see they are actually analogous to cattle. So that you don't care about the virtual problems you solve for virtual company X, is perfectly normal and healthy. They are not your problems, they are not even remotely life-threatening, and so they are not relevant for survival. Jobs are just created to keep us busy, as…

> We're not meant to do jobs, this is just some modern made up concept to keep people busy And > We would be in a world where only work is done that is needed Contradict each other. Of course no one WANTS to work but there are things that HAVE to be done. Like farming, hunting, building shelter. Chopping firewood to keep warm in the winter. You know, modern, made up problems like that. > We would live in a world wher…

>Contradict each other. Of course no one WANTS to work but there are things that HAVE to be done. Like farming, hunting, building shelter. Chopping firewood to keep warm in the winter. You know, modern, made up problems like that.

But those are not made up problems, those are necessities and cost only a minimal amount of time per day, especially if it can be distributed over many more people.

Anyway, how does it contradict? With jobs I mean modern (office) jobs, and I'm clearly saying in the other sentences that it's about _needed_ work.

How is there no time to pursue anything? When I was travelling and not working at all for two years, my quest for survival meant that I had to get food and water and had to keep my shelter clean and working. I 'worked' like 4 hours a week on this.

There is a lot of time to pursue, like helping other people out, learning to play an instrument, making art, building things. If there is any hard physical work to do, we have machines for this, and otherwise always other people around who can help.

All the work we are not meant to do is any work that doesn't produce anything for our survival. That is everything money-related, everything entertainment-related, and everything that is done redundantly because of patents/copyright.

So collectively we would have ALL the time, not less, and then surviving is just peanuts in that case.

Re: I quit the tech industry

#169

Post by hnal943 »

dexterdog wrote: post #104
seivan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through this. Not sure what toxic culture entails, but fucked up deadlines burned me out. Why do all software companies rush so hard.

Because to most project managers the problem always looks easier during the spec phase than it actually is. Very few people can groc the problem before doing it. Occasionally you over-estimate, but usually you are under. That's why a good manager of project managers usually just slaps a 25% increase on any estimate (adjusting for his knowledge of the particular PM's abilities).

Project managers should not be providing the estimates, but this comment works equally well for the developers who should be.

Re: I quit the tech industry

#170

Post by dragonwriter »

borplk wrote: post #133
johan_larson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's strenuous or dangerous or dirty or degrading or stressful or boring. If it were actually fun, people would be doing it for free. (Exceptions, anyone?) We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually. Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of…

> if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work Even if someone loves doing something they can still ask to be paid to do it for other people

Sometimes, doing it for other people is the nasty bit.
Post reply on HN