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It's the Future

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Re: It's the Future

#112
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we make it cheaper than we can buy it? Is their purchase price more expensive than my hourly wage for a few months?

Can you guarantee success at development? And even if you can, is it a good idea? The coolest software project I've ever been on was also the dumbest. We were trying to build a bios in-house - something that can be bought off-the-shelf for a buck. In theory, it could have saved us millions in the long run. In the short run, we were wasting man-months of engineering on something that was not our business, when the clo…

Funny you say that. I just had a conversation about a meeting I was involved in a few years back when our EE's didn't understand why we thought it was a spectacularly bad idea to design our own Pentium-class CPU boards vs. just buying them off the shelf.

Cost advantage? What's that? We just want a cool project!

Re: It's the Future

#114
post #48
post #4

It really is striking how products like Docker, even while delivering incredible value, continuously fail to message themselves in an intelligible way. If you go to https://www.docker.com , you see: "Build, Ship and Run. Any App, Anywhere." Jesus Christ. I get that you're The Future, but make the value prop for me here, at least. Why should I use Docker? What parts of my stack does it replace? When does the cost-bene…

Thanks for the frank feedback. I agree that we have a lot of "wiggle room", as you so diplomatically put it. Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md One problem we've encountered is that the audience for Docker is incredible broad - much broader than you might imagine when reading Hacker News for example. It is extremely common…

> Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md

From the perspective of this longtime software developer, this isn't that great either. I'll try to give some specifics.

* The terms "container" and "containerization" seem to mean a lot to the author of the document, but they're never defined well and they're used an awful lot despite this. That kind of thing isn't half-bad marketspeak if the point is to get people thinking about this in the vague "It's the future!" manner that The Fine Article is satirizing (and/or accurately reporting as part of the social dynamics of the industry). The invocation of an unfamiliar term over and over can serve as a form of social proof and generates curiosity. But it might well be what's triggering suspicion on the part of some engineers.

* Positioning containers as an alternative to VMs is somewhat helpful in giving at least some idea of what kind of rough problem space we're working in -- someone familiar with a VM knows that they're often used to reproduce the specific runtime environment a given application needs. But by the end of the section I still have no real idea how "containers" are different other than that they're "lighter." Except for one clue: I know what FreeBSD jails are. So I might guess that something like them is involved -- but you're describing them as "primitives", so there's something else involved and I don't see an explanation of what it is. Is Docker a glorified chroot jail? If it's something more, what's the additional value?

* And... two sections down "escape dependency hell" -- that might be the additional value prop! But again, this section is really confusing. Dependency management means package management, right? But it's being done with Yet Another New Undefined Entity called "Layers" without replacing any other package manager so... we have two package managers? Or Layers aren't package management? What the hell are they? I could guess they're something like an image but I have no idea.

* "Plays well with others" Gives strong hints this is mostly a Unix thing (which, if this is some kind of enhanced chroot jail makes sense). Somewhat in conflict with the hints of platform agnosticism earlier in the document. Is there a story here for Windows, either as a host or for windows apps?

* "Real World Examples" These tell me how to "Dockerize" different server apps... but there's no context about why I might want to do this. What problem am I trying to solve?

And that's the thing -- at the end of this, I don't know what problem I might be trying to solve with Docker. I might guess Docker helps me deploy an application along with a specific normalized runtime environment, but that's from a lot of guessing and reading between the lines rather than from an upfront communication from the text itself.

If my description is accurate, a clearer version of it should be your first sentence. Followed by a second paragraph telling me enough about some specific frictions you've done away with compared to other solutions that I'm wanting to learn more. Then tell me some specific stories about situations where someone might have a problem that Docker is a good fit for, and explain the rough usage that be applied to address it.

Re: It's the Future

#115
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the frank feedback. I agree that we have a lot of "wiggle room", as you so diplomatically put it. Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md One problem we've encountered is that the audience for Docker is incredible broad - much broader than you might imagine when reading Hacker News for example. It is extremely common…

> Thanks for the frank feedback. I agree that we have a lot of "wiggle room", as you so diplomatically put it. Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md I have two thoughts on this. First, if CIOs and IT directors are calling, then it's possible they're confused by the website, too. Second, the README is definitely better, but wo…

> First, if CIOs and IT directors are calling, then it's possible they're confused by the website, too.

I meant to say that they used to call us, back when our website looked like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20130329031911/http://www.docker...

> If it's targeted to web apps and back end services, say that in the first place, instead of "any application."

That was deliberate. Although obviously most people use Docker for web apps today, there is no reason they can't try it in other contexts too. For example, there is a very vibrant sub-community of people dockerizing desktop apps, and running Docker on embedded devices like Raspberri Pi etc. There are also (very) experimental ports to Android, and I heard of at least one person who after learning that Tesla is a modified Ubuntu under the hood, set out to try and run Docker on it (I don't know if they succeeded).

Re: It's the Future

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're more worried about messaging than being simple and useful But useful means different things to different people. To a dev, Docker might mean you keep your environment clean, scripting of automated testing, and have platform agnostic deployments. To the CIO, Docker means your devs spend less time futzing around with their stuff and more time working on the product. Or that he can upgrade his infrastructure g…

> To the CIO, Docker means your devs spend less time futzing around with their stuff and more time working on the product The question is whether or not the CIO knows that the devs are in fact futzing around with ad hoc solutions to problems that Docker solves. I think the parent is arguing that in the right flow of things, that awareness is going to flow up to them from the people closest to the problem (the dev/ops…

From my experience, it's not either-or. First you need "bottom-up" adoption by actual practitioners (in the case of Docker, developers and sysadmins). Then you also need to understand the constraints and requirements of people who are in a position to say "no". Those include managers, but also procurement, architects, network engineers, security teams, etc. Those people aren't the ones championing your product (most of the time they don't have very strong opinions either way), but they have a job to do, and if a new dev tool affects their ability to do their job, they're going to say "no".

It's very common for developers or sysadmin to contact us and ask for a powerpoint deck, so that they can give a convincing presentation to their management about the virtues of using Docker in their new project. We even have specialized teams that go in and do everything they can to help Docker-based projects succeed.

But as you point out, it all starts with someone inside the organization who really, really wants to use your product. Otherwise no amount of messaging is going to save you.

Re: It's the Future

#117
I've always thought of the whole containerization and orchestration "hotness" (I guess we're calling it "gifee" now?) to be great for people who want to write their own PaaS. And not really anybody else.

I mean, it's great that the pieces are all there and open source now. You can get to a really great place with automation by gluing together Docker/Rocket, Mesos/Kubernetes, etcd/zookeeper, etc. But for now, a complete solution still requires you to bring a lot of your own glue.

I mean, by the time you've actually covered enough edge cases to make all these ops components work together in a meaningful way, in a way that doesn't doesn't fail randomly or trip over itself when some critical component breaks, you may as well just start charging other people money to use it.

I say this from the point of view of someone who's done it all (implemented a private Heroku on the stack described above [1]), and although it works amazingly well (for literally hundreds of internal apps), it was not trivial... not even close. We're talking probably 1-2 man-years of effort to get it to the point where it's usable, and that's with leveraging as much existing tech as we can.

To anybody else, as in, any company who actually wants to ship a product (where the product isn't just a PaaS), I just don't see how it's worth it. Just use heroku (or elastic beanstalk, or appengine, or whatever.)

[1] I'd love to make all the glue open source but I'm not really in a position to do so. But I suspect I'm not the only person who's done this... I really think anybody who's gotten this whole "the future" stack working solidly is in a similar position as me: if you really did get the job done for a single app, chances are you've invented an internal Heroku of your own.

Re: It's the Future

#118

I've always thought of the whole containerization and orchestration "hotness" (I guess we're calling it "gifee" now?) to be great for people who want to write their own PaaS. And not really anybody else. I mean, it's great that the pieces are all there and open source now. You can get to a really great place with automation by gluing together Docker/Rocket, Mesos/Kubernetes, etcd/zookeeper, etc. But for now, a comple…

Or use cloud foundry (http://cloudfoundry.org/index.html) if you have a burning desire to stand up your own paas vs. just using heroku.

Re: It's the Future

#119
post #4

It really is striking how products like Docker, even while delivering incredible value, continuously fail to message themselves in an intelligible way. If you go to https://www.docker.com , you see: "Build, Ship and Run. Any App, Anywhere." Jesus Christ. I get that you're The Future, but make the value prop for me here, at least. Why should I use Docker? What parts of my stack does it replace? When does the cost-bene…

Pretty much this. I was working on a simple Rails app to get familiar with Rails and someone mentioned Docker to me. So I went to their website, did the tutorial, didn't understand why this is essential or better and just pushed to Heroku instead. Half of the time, if not more, I have no idea why this or that technology is being pushed so much or mentioned or whatever. And the landing page is not making it easier. Sometimes I feel like web development is more complicated than it should be.
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