Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It's the Future

blog.circleci.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 146 posts

Re: It's the Future

#61

Post by digi_owl »

aerovistae wrote: post #36
unoti wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really nothing new. It's a DevOps version of Joel on Software's famous essay about Architecture Astronaughts from 2001: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html

From that article: "The Architecture Astronauts will say things like: "Can you imagine a program like Napster where you can download anything, not just songs?" hahahahahhaha bittorrent.

Even Napster was used for non-music stuff towards the end, by renaming archives as mp3.

And the basic protocol was later adopted for more generic sharing systems, never mind the number of clones that came about after Napster was lawyer bombed.

Bittorrent is just the latest in a long string of P2P systems, with the biggest difference being the lack of a central search server.

Re: It's the Future

#62

Post by dragonwriter »

ezy wrote: post #46
akanet wrote: post #4

It really is striking how products like Docker, even while delivering incredible value, continuously fail to message themselves in an intelligible way. If you go to https://www.docker.com , you see: "Build, Ship and Run. Any App, Anywhere." Jesus Christ. I get that you're The Future, but make the value prop for me here, at least. Why should I use Docker? What parts of my stack does it replace? When does the cost-bene…

The problem is not that they "message themselves" (gross) wrong, but that they feel like they have to "message" at all. Sales & marketing mumbo jumbo has no place in devtools -- it is at best, obfuscation -- at worst, misrepresentation.

Devs are people.

Getting people to use things requires communicating to them what the things is for, and how it is better than other alternatives, and how to use it to realize that benefit.

Therefore, devtool adoption requires messaging related to what the devtool is for, how the devtool is superior to other alternatives in the same space, and how to use the devtool to realize that superiority.

Actually having the tool is a start, but its not the ballgame if no one can understand what its for, why they should use it over other things that serve the same purpose, and how to use it.

Re: It's the Future

#63

Post by benmathes »

shykes wrote: post #48
akanet wrote: post #4

It really is striking how products like Docker, even while delivering incredible value, continuously fail to message themselves in an intelligible way. If you go to https://www.docker.com , you see: "Build, Ship and Run. Any App, Anywhere." Jesus Christ. I get that you're The Future, but make the value prop for me here, at least. Why should I use Docker? What parts of my stack does it replace? When does the cost-bene…

Thanks for the frank feedback. I agree that we have a lot of "wiggle room", as you so diplomatically put it. Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md One problem we've encountered is that the audience for Docker is incredible broad - much broader than you might imagine when reading Hacker News for example. It is extremely common…

Big platforms tend to be different things to different people. Might help to have a different "what is docker?" page for the various roles you encounter.

  For CIOs: click here
  For developers: click here
  For sysadmins/devops: click here
  For platform providers (e.g. heroku): click here.

Re: It's the Future

#64

Post by joezydeco »

nether wrote: post #49
Animats wrote: post #3

Ah, l33t for system architects. A few days ago, the CTO of Soylent, the food drink, was describing their elaborate computer infrastructure. They have one (1) product and a simple web site. Based on their sales volume, they do about two sales a minute. That could run on a HostGator "Hatchling" account for $4/month, using one of the seven off the shelf shopping cart/payment programs HostGator offers.

Soylent had exceptionally poor order handling prior to their latest round of funding. The way they've run their business and development seems like a total joke. 6-10 month order delays over a year since they started selling? (Not to mention charging orders before shipping) "Most scientific food" - zero clinical trials? Are you shitting me?

Might want to read this:

https://medium.com/@alando46/how-we-spent-500-on-tech-to-shi...

If you knew how most modern warehouse/shipping facilities ran their IT, your head would spin.

Re: It's the Future

#65

Post by sebringj »

These frameworks arise from huge corporations then get preached to the masses. Problem is, they are only useful at the huge corporation level. Ironic.

Re: It's the Future

#66

Post by rargulati »

shykes wrote: post #48
akanet wrote: post #4

It really is striking how products like Docker, even while delivering incredible value, continuously fail to message themselves in an intelligible way. If you go to https://www.docker.com , you see: "Build, Ship and Run. Any App, Anywhere." Jesus Christ. I get that you're The Future, but make the value prop for me here, at least. Why should I use Docker? What parts of my stack does it replace? When does the cost-bene…

Thanks for the frank feedback. I agree that we have a lot of "wiggle room", as you so diplomatically put it. Out of curiosity how do you feel about the current README on Docker's repo? https://github.com/docker/docker/blob/master/README.md One problem we've encountered is that the audience for Docker is incredible broad - much broader than you might imagine when reading Hacker News for example. It is extremely common…

Anecdotally, something I've seen work in the B2B space is framing the message `n` different ways for each type (n) of stakeholder. So you'd have a quick view of value props and stories for the CIO, the IT director, etc. Sometimes it's hard to find the general value proposition, and it's much easier to have the different cohorts self-select into the message that means the most to them. And sure, sometimes this doesn't cut it and you have to get on the phone.

The general message could still be there (kitchy and sexy), the focus would still be on the end user (developer), but others wouldn't have a hard time finding the message that resonates with them.

Has anyone else seen this strategy succeed (or fail) for their business?

Re: It's the Future

#67

Post by mtbcoder »

Animats wrote: post #3

Ah, l33t for system architects. A few days ago, the CTO of Soylent, the food drink, was describing their elaborate computer infrastructure. They have one (1) product and a simple web site. Based on their sales volume, they do about two sales a minute. That could run on a HostGator "Hatchling" account for $4/month, using one of the seven off the shelf shopping cart/payment programs HostGator offers.

Doesn't really seem that elaborate if this is correct: https://twitter.com/stackshareio/status/578629809242312704

Re: It's the Future

#69

Post by walterbell »

icebraining wrote: post #51

This hits home. While everyone is talking containers, we're running simple processes with a Linux user per instance, and I feel no need to add more complexity to our system, except I'm really struggling to automate stuff. It seems that if you aren't running a full dockerized cluster of services or outsourcing everything to a PaaS, you're left with building all the infrastructure yourself. What did people use before t…

A couple of decades of experience is encoded in CFEngine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFEngine

http://cfengine.com/product/community/

Re: It's the Future

#70

Post by vezzy-fnord »

akanet wrote: post #53
ezy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that they "message themselves" (gross) wrong, but that they feel like they have to "message" at all. Sales & marketing mumbo jumbo has no place in devtools -- it is at best, obfuscation -- at worst, misrepresentation.

I find that position to be very hard to understand - devtools live or die by their adoption. A clear understanding of what a tool does is critical to its adoption. Look at, say, the homepage of Ruby: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ . There's a clear, two sentence explanation of what it is: A dynamic, open source programming language with a focus on simplicity and productivity. It has an elegant syntax that is natural t…

A clear understanding of what a tool does is critical to its adoption.

The definitions of "clear" differ depending on who the target audience is. If you're assuming a heterogenous group of unknown faces, then you aim for colloquial and simplified language.

When marketing to programmers, however, the use of technical jargon and specific concepts is an absolute necessity for something to attain clarity. It's the avoidance of such that obfuscates meaning.

Here's an example of a good software overview: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwar...

The nerd-centric viewpoint that tool should succeed entirely on their own merits, with no affordances for the user, is crazy

This is a straw man. Introductions can be concise or detailed, but they must convey some of the technical intricacies and underpinnings regarding the software. Using marketing language, clouds of buzzwords and too many dumb copy-paste examples leads to cargo cult development and people who jump on bandwagons as opposed to surveying for what is technically superior.

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with your one-liner.

Post reply on HN