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“Swift will be open source later this year”

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Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#441
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is truly not meant to be a snarky comment, but why is it so overtly verbose? I left Java years ago b/c it was making my fingers arthritic it seems. It doesn't look like much fun. Sure, IDEs do autocomplete, but still requires parsing by the human eye. I'm sure you get used to it. Every language looks horrible the first time, then you learn to live with it and maybe love it, but on first glance that looks pretty…

Objective-C tends to err on the side of readability. Considering that source code is read many more times than it is written it's something I personally agree with. But yeah it's something you do get used to. Java's problem is that C# exists and is a more expressive language.

But this isn't readable at all.

If you compare it JSON.parse(x) or fromJSON x it's just awful.

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Web is winning." If you mean "everything but HTML-based web sites", that's accurate. If you mean the actual Web sites, I really don't see it. The Web is huge, so isn't exactly dying, but it certainly isn't winning. Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Native still often (thankfully) uses architectural elements of the web (URIs and HTTP) and the UX of…

> Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Yeah? I could type a URL to anything here, and you could view it. If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower. You need space on your mobile device to install my app. Potentially a password entered to install it. It ne…

I am a huge proponent of the web architecture, I just think HTML is dying from the politicization of the standards process and resulting slow pace of innovation.

"If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. "

This is not true. I enter a URL into my iPhone's Safari, it deep links into the App associated with the domain. We just watched a WWDC keynote that showed plenty of deep linking between apps, from Siri, etc.

"The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower..."

This is also contrary to the data - people love apps, download and use apps like mad. Over $100 billion in revenue is expected to be from mobile apps this year. That's bigger than Hollywood box office 3x, bigger than book publishing 10x, bigger than PC software. The only thing it doesn't eclipse is packaged/server software yet.

Installing and using apps is demonstrating to be less effort than using the web on a mobile device: I have to do it once, vs. have to deal with a slow web browser every time I use the website.

This isn't to say people don't use the web on their phones, it's that if an app is available, people will pick the app.

"Potentially a password entered to install it... You need to approve my permissions"

Same on any website I have to sign up with via form or OAuth2.

And if an app has in-app purchases, I do none of that (just sign in on the store or use my thumbprint).

"The content of my app isn't searched in any search engine. You can't bookmark where you were."

That's interesting, most of the apps I use are searchable in the app, or on the Web. That doesn't mean I'm using a web browser to do most of the interactions.

Again, I don't think the Web is going away, just that HTML is becoming the new command prompt. That might change if something awesome comes out via open hypermedia. Doesn't look like it though... given how rich experiences are getting and how political the HTML standards process is.

"And sheer numerical demand? Again, I'm not so sure. Actually, I'm quite sure you're wrong."

By what measure? I mean, I don't claim infallibility here, I'm just saying that (a) mobile smartphones are quickly becoming the most common device on the planet, more common than a toothbrush, car, or toilet, (b) all of these support apps, (c) almost every company with a service or content has an app, (d) almost every user will prefer an app over over an website, and (e) thus almost all the money spent on consumer software is moving to native mobile. I'm following the money and the usage figures..

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too little too late. Apple could have got my attention if they had done this from the start, but at this point I find it hard to get excited about this. That's just like your opinion man. If Swift is Open Source it's gonna be a huge thing, for two reasons: (a) it already attracts millions of developers because it's the suggested language to develop iOS apps in, and (b) it's a nice modern language that plays in a ve…

> it already attracts millions of developers because it's the suggested language to develop iOS apps in Which I pointed out isn't always a good thing. You know how Rails kind of overshadows Ruby because so much use of Ruby is related to rails? Well I think swift will face the same exact fate. I'm not interested in developing iOS frontends or iOS backends in the language. I firmly believe Web will win, and I believe i…

Sorry, but you are too deep in your illusion. Your TL;DR is funny. How will you then explain dozens of JS frameworks coming out every day? The web holding to it's dear life? Please, stop talking about the things you know nothing about. Or at least give native development a honest try and see for your self, that web is not winning anything, and web apps are just a huge pile of mess. Or for a start just try to make the app with ReactJS which looks the same on every device. Good luck.

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Web is winning." If you mean "everything but HTML-based web sites", that's accurate. If you mean the actual Web sites, I really don't see it. The Web is huge, so isn't exactly dying, but it certainly isn't winning. Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Native still often (thankfully) uses architectural elements of the web (URIs and HTTP) and the UX of…

> Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Yeah? I could type a URL to anything here, and you could view it. If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower. You need space on your mobile device to install my app. Potentially a password entered to install it. It ne…

Why would I prefer to type a URL? I can just as easily get an URL for the app in ap store and have it right there. Having app stored on my device is an advantage, unless you like your web apps download in full even on crappy mobile connection. And you really want the content of your app indexed by external search engine? I like being able to control the permissions my app has. Or does your web app not ask for the permission to use your location, camera, microphone? I don't need to bookmark where I were in the app: I open it and I am there at once.

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#446
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few months ago talking about how apple was never going to do this I would have definitely participated in the hate if I had seen that thread, all I can saw now is: bravo Apple! More of this please!

Perhaps there is a lesson here.

yup. more hate (bad press / pressure), better behavior from huge companies

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, why do you say that (about Go)?

It feels much too pragmatic for my taste. Exactly the kind of thing to come out of Google, to solve their type of problem (scalability, deployment are much more important than the code itself). Personally I don't have googles problems (few of us do!) and I really like a good type system, with algebraic types/pattern matching/generics

It feels much too pragmatic for my taste.

C was unprincipled and pragmatic too, it was created with the goal of making UNIX portable. Still, C became one of the most popular and influential languages.

While I prefer ADTs/generics too, let's not forget that many people are less principled and pragmatic factors influence language choice as much (toolchain, ecosystem, popularity, familiarity).

Re: “Swift will be open source later this year”

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objective-C never caught on outside of the Apple/NeXT ecosystem because its biggest advantages were in the application frameworks, not the language itself. By the time iOS made Objective-C popular there were entrenched alternatives in the C++, Java, and .NET ecosystems. Swift is facing the same challenges, but against a newer generation of competitors that are much less established. It's probably still an uphill batt…

Not to mention, Swift the language itself, which is basically Rust with arguably an easier memory management model (all ARC) and Scala-like pragmatism (an OOP model built-in). Coming from ObjC, developers are showing a high level of interest in Swift. I might look it up when it comes out for Linux!

I have carefully compared the two languages and I do not see more similarity than between Go and Swift or any other language. You have yourself cited the different memory management models, and this is the main characteristic of Rust. The sole common feature is the use of LLVM.
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