Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

sebastianmarshall.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 48 posts

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#21

Post by BryantD »

JadeNB wrote: post #3

I like the author's careful descriptions of what is good about the document, but it seems like common-sense pragmatism. Surely there are other, equally pragmatic and sensible, documents? (I admit that I don't have any examples, but I am not often exposed to good or bad procedures documents.) Why does this one deserve particularly to be singled out? EDIT: As dragonwriter ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9682195…

Sebastian Marshall writes in a fairly hyperbolic style. If I were to apply a de-hyperbolizing filter, I think the post title would be something more like "this document is a pretty good example of how processes can evolve and become perfected over time."

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#22

Post by oconnor663 »

Reminds me a bit of this bit from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality: http://hpmor.com/chapter/84

---

From his belt, the Auror took a mirror, tapped it once, and then said, "This is Junior Auror Arjun Altunay, I'm calling in code RJ-L20 on cell three."

"Code RJ-L20?" the mirror said in surprised tones. There was a sound of pages being flipped, then, "You want to be relieved because a prisoner is attempting psychological warfare and succeeding?"

(Amelia Bones really is quite intelligent.)

"What'd the prisoner say to you?" said the mirror.

(This question is not part of procedure RJ-L20, but unfortunately Amelia Bones has failed to include an explicit instruction that the commanding officer should not ask.)

"He's -" said the Auror, and glanced back at the cell. The Defense Professor was now leaning in back in his chair, looking quite relaxed. "He was staring at me! And humming! "

There was a pause.

The mirror spoke again. "And you're calling in an RJ-L20 over that? You're sure you're not just trying to get out of watching him?"

(Amelia Bones is surrounded by idiots.)

"You don't understand!" yelled Auror Altunay. "It's really awful humming!"

The mirror transmitted a sound of muffled laughter in the background, sounding like it was coming from more than one person. Then speech again. "Mr. Altunay, if you don't want to be busted to Junior Auror Second Class, I suggest you buckle down and get back to work -"

"Strike that," a crisp voice said, sounding slightly remote due to its distance from the mirror.

(Which is why Amelia Bones often sits in on a coordination center of the D.M.L.E. while doing her Ministry-required paperwork.)

"Auror Altunay," said the crisp voice, seeming to approach closer to the mirror, "you will be relieved shortly. Auror Ben Gutierrez, the procedure for RJ-L20 does not say that you ask why. It says that you relieve the Auror who calls it in. If I find that Aurors seem to be abusing it, I will modify the procedure to prevent its abuse -" The mirror cut off abruptly.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#23

Post by drblast »

This is drilled into you when you join the Navy.

Then you get to an aircraft carrier. You're the in port officer of the deck. You know the rules. You make sure every sentry is checking ID's.

Then someone tries to get through with a piece of laminated red paper with their name on it. You turn them away. They say, "Hey, I'm a contractor, I'm supposed to be here."

You call the Command Duty Officer. He says, "Oh, if it's a contractor, they have their own ID's, let him through."

You ask, "What do the contractor ID's look like?"

He says, "Oh, they're all different depending on the contracting company."

You ask, "Do we have samples of them, or can anyone just make one up and walk on board?"

crickets

Then you peek out and stare at the line of about 300 contractors and dock workers who, if you're doing your job, aren't going to get to work on the ship that day.

Lesson: rules are great but execution really matters.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#24

Post by jordanpg »

drblast wrote: post #23

This is drilled into you when you join the Navy. Then you get to an aircraft carrier. You're the in port officer of the deck. You know the rules. You make sure every sentry is checking ID's. Then someone tries to get through with a piece of laminated red paper with their name on it. You turn them away. They say, "Hey, I'm a contractor, I'm supposed to be here." You call the Command Duty Officer. He says, "Oh, if it's…

Concur. A charming read that plays on the reader's generally inaccurate assumption that the military is just like "Full Metal Jacket".

I too had to memorize these and then once the screaming stopped, I never saw them again.

I think these are a big deal in the Marine Corps and that's it.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#25

Post by MichaelCrawford »

It could be said that the radar crew that spotted the Japanese on their way to the Pearl Harbor attack failed in their duty. I've ready various discussions as to why; one was that they were expecting US planes in that area, the other is that the planes they spotted gave such a strong signal that the radar crew regarded it as malfunctioning equipment.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#26

Post by MichaelCrawford »

ianso wrote: post #9

This reminds me of "two stories of the pistol", some anecdotes where a sentry actually does almost kill some idiot senior officers: http://everything2.com/title/Two+stories+of+the+pistol

My father's ship was patrolling off the cost of south vietnam. They were told that civilian Vietnamese fishing boats traveling east or west were fishing, whereas those going north or south were running ammunition or troops.

So one day they spotted a sailboat going south. The request permission to shell it. The permission was granted.

Dad thought it was quite funny, the shower of fish in the air when the shell detonated.

It never occured to me until many years later, to wonder about the crew aboard the fishing boat. It was quite common for entire families to live on their fishing boats for their whole lives.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#27

Post by Bahamut »

jordanpg wrote: post #24
drblast wrote: post #23

This is drilled into you when you join the Navy. Then you get to an aircraft carrier. You're the in port officer of the deck. You know the rules. You make sure every sentry is checking ID's. Then someone tries to get through with a piece of laminated red paper with their name on it. You turn them away. They say, "Hey, I'm a contractor, I'm supposed to be here." You call the Command Duty Officer. He says, "Oh, if it's…

Concur. A charming read that plays on the reader's generally inaccurate assumption that the military is just like "Full Metal Jacket". I too had to memorize these and then once the screaming stopped, I never saw them again. I think these are a big deal in the Marine Corps and that's it.

Even in the Marine Corps, many Marines forget them after their initial training. Overall, Marines make sure to be attentive on post and challenge all personnel attempting to enter. The general orders just spell out the reasonable course of action most of the time when on guard duty.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#29

Post by mcherm »

oconnor663 wrote: post #22

Reminds me a bit of this bit from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality: http://hpmor.com/chapter/84 --- From his belt, the Auror took a mirror, tapped it once, and then said, "This is Junior Auror Arjun Altunay, I'm calling in code RJ-L20 on cell three." "Code RJ-L20?" the mirror said in surprised tones. There was a sound of pages being flipped, then, "You want to be relieved because a prisoner is attempting p…

Yes, I loved that section.

Re: "General Orders for Sentries" as an operations document

#30

Post by Animats »

Some other military practices of interest:

The five paragraph order format: Situation, Mission, Execution, Administrative and Logistics, Command and Signals. Execution always includes the commander's intent, even if it's one sentence. The situation may change, and the lower ranks need to know the goal, not just what to do.

If you like the way the military thinks, read Gen. Krulak's brief memos from when he was Commandant of the USMC. Typical Krulak: "Marines on riot control duty will be armed. If the situation does not require weapons, it does not require a Marine."

Worth reading: "The Defense of Duffer's Drift".[1]

[1] http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/199th/ocs/content/pdf/T...

Post reply on HN