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“A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

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Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#311

Post by nine_k »

masterleep wrote: post #256
steveklabnik wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have at least attempted to be _very_ clear that I do not begrudge the organizers of this conference for exactly the reason that you say. Your 'boring interpretation' lines up with my understanding of the situation. As has been said many times in this thread, Yarvin is free to say what he believes, and I am free to say what I believe, and organizers are allowed to do what they want. This is how a free market of idea…

Booting out Moldbug makes sense as long as we boot out any avowed communists or Marxists as well. Those philosophies led directly to the deaths of tens of millions in the past century, so any reasonable person should find them highly offensive.

While I won't like this approach on intellectual grounds ("fruit of the poisoned tree" type of reasoning), I completely agree that it would at least show some integrity.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#312

Post by hga »

lexcorvus wrote: post #304

In the context of views that are potentially odious but are tolerated in technology, it's perhaps worth noting that two of the instigators of this decision [1, 2] are respectively an avowed communist [3] and a socialist who serves on the board of a magazine that literally takes its name from the people who brought us the Reign of Terror [4]. Should they be barred from speaking at conferences because people might feel…

And [1, 3], in reference to explicitly violent European "antifascists", in the context of a "sorely needed" but inchoate as of last October "tech antifa[scist]" movement, is "100% okay with that, personally."(https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/523497129772613632).

I assure you that people of the right like me feel "unsafe" about the presence of people like them in American society, and I wonder if they've thought about the consequences of that, of their programs in general, etc. I see no way for this to end well.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#313

Post by tptacek »

devalier wrote: post #258
cwyers wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that Carlyle essay, he says these, among other things: "Once we get this far, we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We have not agreed that a man can be born a slave, but we agree that he can sell himself into slavery. That is: he can sign a contract with a master in which the slave agrees unconditionally to obey and work for the master, and the master agrees unconditionally to protect and support the s…

Moldbug did in other places explicitly denounce hereditary, chattel slavery and called it evil. His actual view seems to be that it should be legal for a person to sign a permanent, life-long employment contract, mediated and regulated for abuse by the state, where the person gets a guaranteed wage in return for having to provide labor. The idea is that for the lower end of the bell curve, this is a lot more humane t…

Yarvin makes repeated references to Carlyle in multiple pieces, not just the one that's being circulated. Carlyle's position on slavery is not compatible with your summary.

Carlyle's take† is distilled utilitarianism. The blacks in the West Indies are lazy and stupid. The English are not. The climate in the West Indies is such that a black person living there need not work at all; they can simply pluck their food off the vines. The English are starving. Left to their own devices, the black people will revert to a state of nature, killing each other in an atavistic reversion to a primal jungle. At least under slavery, they can be watched over by benevolent masters. The sugar trade will thrive. The English will prosper. Slavery is pareto efficient.

It's really not hard to find attachment points to Carlyle's "Discourse" in multiple places through Yarvin's writing --- the references to Carlyle, the nitpicking over 1850s politics extrapolated to condemnations of the abolition movement, the genetic predisposition stuff.

A reasonable person could reach the conclusion that the parent commenter did.

It is not, however, fair to say that Yarvin wrote overt defenses of slavery. His defenses of slavery --- presuming that's what they are --- are cryptic.

† and, I'll trepidatiously infer, Yarvin's (after correcting for modernity)

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#314

Post by amcastillo »

tptacek wrote: post #189
paxdickinson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I only saw two twitter comments complaining before the disinvitation, and one of those was proud communist Steve Klabnik.

There was a way to point out that Klabnik's politics may conflict him out of this debate, but calling him a "proud communist" wasn't it. Personal attacks aren't allowed on HN. Sometimes the line between personal attack and ideological critique is blurry. The closer you get to that line here, the more carefully you need to write.

If CY's writing on Carlyle is relevant, why is noting that SK lobbies for more programmers to integrate Marx and other left-radical writers beyond reproach? http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2011-12-15-marx-anarchism...

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#315

Post by hga »

devalier wrote: post #308
al3x wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The political left in America were made enemies of the state during the era of McCarthyism. People's careers and personal lives were ruined during that Red Scare. That is "silencing". That is "limiting speech". Who on the right today has been similarly "silenced"? If someone is called out for racism and then voluntarily chooses to exit public life or withdraw further commentary, that's their own cowardly choice. Bein…

Who on the right today has been similarly "silenced"? Here is a very long list: https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/bullied-and-bad... Congratulations on getting the last and final scalp. The right in America has a political and media apparatus that far outstrips that of the left in funding. The left has 99% of the university system including the entire Ivy league, which in total receives hundreds of billion…

A better way to look at strength is to look at who has been winning the battles. If you look at the past 50 years, the left has won most of them.

And as others have noted, they are now reduced to policing the battlefield and shooting the survivors, which of course Curtis was one.

(EDITED: "is" to [star]was[star], because having been "read out of polite society" anything he's trying to accomplish right now, like urbit, is over.)

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#316

Post by hga »

tptacek wrote: post #313
devalier wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moldbug did in other places explicitly denounce hereditary, chattel slavery and called it evil. His actual view seems to be that it should be legal for a person to sign a permanent, life-long employment contract, mediated and regulated for abuse by the state, where the person gets a guaranteed wage in return for having to provide labor. The idea is that for the lower end of the bell curve, this is a lot more humane t…

Yarvin makes repeated references to Carlyle in multiple pieces, not just the one that's being circulated. Carlyle's position on slavery is not compatible with your summary. Carlyle's take† is distilled utilitarianism. The blacks in the West Indies are lazy and stupid. The English are not. The climate in the West Indies is such that a black person living there need not work at all; they can simply pluck their food off…

Which puts us firmly in the (disputed) land of Cardinal Richelieu:

Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#317

Post by tptacek »

hga wrote: post #316
tptacek wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yarvin makes repeated references to Carlyle in multiple pieces, not just the one that's being circulated. Carlyle's position on slavery is not compatible with your summary. Carlyle's take† is distilled utilitarianism. The blacks in the West Indies are lazy and stupid. The English are not. The climate in the West Indies is such that a black person living there need not work at all; they can simply pluck their food off…

Which puts us firmly in the (disputed) land of Cardinal Richelieu: Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre. If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.

Could you be a little more explicit about what you're trying to say? Because I'm prepared to get into more detail here, if you're contesting my interpretation.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#318

Post by Zigurd »

chao- wrote: post #210
tomjen3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody who believes in their cause. While I wouldn't take it out on a child, I won't want to associate with somebody who was against gay marriage or try to save somebody who was against women's rights to their own bodies. I feel that anybody who spends time with the people they strongly disagree with, when they don't have to, lack a moral backbone.

Do you also feel the intense sense of extremely partisan, political divide in the US is desirable? Because that is what results from holing up in ideologically segregated communities where everyone agrees about nine-tenths of everything, and where one only encounters their political other in the form of a media caricature.

I do not think that the sorting of the population by politics is desirable, but I do think it is inevitable and that it presages a period of low-intensity conflict. America is not one place anymore. It has become a set of enclaves, and it's not just a left-right split. It has multiple dimensions: religious, economic, authoritarian/libertarian, racist/inclusive, etc.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#319

Post by tptacek »

lexcorvus wrote: post #309
tptacek wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this is a fair question to ask Klabnik, since the issue in Yarvin's case isn't whether somewhat obscure namedropped French philosophers think his views are racist. Edit: It seems to me like there's no controversy about whether Yarvin's views are racist; it's barely controversial to suggest that he's a white supremacist (if that's something he wants to distance himself from, he's done himself no favor…

if that's something he wants to distance himself from, he's done himself no favors by overtly nodding to white nationalism in his own writing This is incredibly misleading. Replace "overtly nodding" with explicitly disavowing : the post in question is literally called "Why I am not a white nationalist" [1]. And that's not "people have accused me of being a white nationalist, here's why I'm not", it's "here's why I do…

He clearly is not a fan of the modern racist. That's unsurprising, because (thankfully) the educated sector of our culture has turned it into a taboo, and so to be a modern racist is for most people to be the sort of yutz who writes things on Stormfront.

He sure does seem to have a finely-tuned appreciation of archaic racists, though.

I feel like --- maybe I've misinterpreted the whole piece, but this is what I think right now --- the misrepresentation here is yours. You lean on the title of the post, "Why I Am Not A White Nationalist", but if you've read it, I'll hazard a guess that in your heart you'd agree that it could be subtitled "But Not NOT One, Either".

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#320

Post by tptacek »

amcastillo wrote: post #314
tptacek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a way to point out that Klabnik's politics may conflict him out of this debate, but calling him a "proud communist" wasn't it. Personal attacks aren't allowed on HN. Sometimes the line between personal attack and ideological critique is blurry. The closer you get to that line here, the more carefully you need to write.

If CY's writing on Carlyle is relevant, why is noting that SK lobbies for more programmers to integrate Marx and other left-radical writers beyond reproach? http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2011-12-15-marx-anarchism...

It isn't. The manner in which it was evoked in the above comment was rude and dismissive, and that's the problem.

Incidentally, I'm irritated by Klabnik's politics. But I don't find them disqualifying. I am not so sure about Yarvin's. Can I reliably articulate why I think that's fair? No, I don't think so. And I can live with that.

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