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Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

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Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#51

Post by j-pb »

Dewie3 wrote: post #41
j-pb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And? Does that give your argument more weight? Yes because he is potentially one from the target audience of this. If somebody isn't willing to put in the tiny bit of effort to learn the tiny bit of english required for programming, they're not willing to put in the huge amount of effort that is required to learn programming anyways. We have enough horribly documented code that needs maintenance, there is no need t…

> Yes because he is potentially one from the target audience of this. No, because he already knows English. The proclamation "We should tax the rich less" is a self-serving sentence whether it comes from someone who was born into wealth, or it comes from someone who became rich later in life. > If somebody isn't willing to put in the tiny bit of effort to learn the tiny bit of english required for programming, they'r…

> No, because he already knows English.

And he didn't have to learn it at some point?

My english was pretty much nonexistent until I picked up programming.

Like I said below, nobody is arguing against beginner languages/tools like scratch and logo that could essentially be programmed in emoji, for what it's worth.

But people are arguing against "real" programming languages being translated, because that's a waste of everyones time.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#52

Post by j-pb »

blowski wrote: post #39
timonoko wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really horrible when local civil servants start to invent translations for English words, which did not mean anything computer-related to begin with. Like Spool and Cache and Cookie. Why cant browser's Cookie be just Cookie, it is easy to vocalize in any languiage. Why they want to translate Cookie into local bakery term? It does not raise level of comprehension any.

Partly because 'cookie' requires the latin alphabet, and the ability to pronounce those sounds (it's not as easy as you think). If you're trying to avoid dilution of your language, you may want to come up with your own localised words.

> dilution of your language

Let me guess, you're french?

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#53

Post by ifdefdebug »

Well it's not as easy as some of the posts here suggest, like all you need from English is "if", "for", "while" and little more. Don't forget about the libraries coming with each language. You'll also have to map "memcpy" to "memory" and "copy" and know those words, or understand what a "TreeViewItemCollection" is for, just to give two examples out of tens of thousands.

Said that, I think trying to localize programming just isn't going to work. If you want to program, you'd better get along with the English language.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#54

Post by j-pb »

lmm wrote: post #50
j-pb wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not relevant to the point. And even smalltalk wouldn't allow this, without reflection, since method handles aren't really first class objects.

It is exactly the point: the problem is real, but you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead you can use a simple, homoiconic, but still very "real" programming language for teaching.

> homoiconic

I don't think it means what you think it means.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#55

Post by lmm »

j-pb wrote: post #54
lmm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is exactly the point: the problem is real, but you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead you can use a simple, homoiconic, but still very "real" programming language for teaching.

> homoiconic I don't think it means what you think it means.

It's not strictly what I mean, but in practice there's a close correlation; homoiconic languages naturally lend themselves to metaprogramming and so it's more normal to implement e.g. control flow as ordinary functions in the language (where they might be dedicated syntax in other languages). But yes, I really mean a low-syntax language, and they're not all homoiconic.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#56

Post by blowski »

j-pb wrote: post #52
blowski wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly because 'cookie' requires the latin alphabet, and the ability to pronounce those sounds (it's not as easy as you think). If you're trying to avoid dilution of your language, you may want to come up with your own localised words.

> dilution of your language Let me guess, you're french?

Nope, British. But I'm interested in linguistics, and how English affects other languages and the communities that speak those languages.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#57

Post by czechdeveloper »

Dewie3 wrote: post #16
czechdeveloper wrote: post #7

I'm not native English speaker, but I wish people would just accept that English is Latin of computers. I still have to come to servers installed in German or French and guess by memory where stuff are.

If you were curious about learning the guitar, would you first purchase the best 10,000$ guitar you could find at your local shop? No; you'd find some cheap guitar to play on initially to see if you could actually make a habit out of practising the guitar. Now if it turned out that you didn't like it, you have minimized your financial losses. Similarly, some people don't know English. Maybe they're curious about prog…

> And? Does that give your argument more weight?

I'm likely to have to live with results of this. I already do to some extent.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#58

Post by j-pb »

blowski wrote: post #56
j-pb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dilution of your language Let me guess, you're french?

Nope, British. But I'm interested in linguistics, and how English affects other languages and the communities that speak those languages.

I don't see how this is a bad thing though. The more cultural and linguistic bonds there are between nations, the happier everybody gets. More empathy, less war, easier trade, more friends and more options for living and working wherever you like.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#59

Post by blowski »

j-pb wrote: post #58
blowski wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, British. But I'm interested in linguistics, and how English affects other languages and the communities that speak those languages.

I don't see how this is a bad thing though. The more cultural and linguistic bonds there are between nations, the happier everybody gets. More empathy, less war, easier trade, more friends and more options for living and working wherever you like.

Personally, I think there are advantages and disadvantages. The big disadvantage is that small communities which have high social cohesion get squashed by the larger community, which leads to resentment and bitterness. In the UK, we see this with Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Scouse, Geordie, the Black Country, etc. They have all been squashed by 'Estuary English' (although some are making a resurgence).

Online communities (including StackOverflow and Hacker News) do much the same thing by putting rules in place about how people talk with each other. When people break those rules, we get upset, because we see those breaking the rules as 'outsiders' and a threat to the community.

I believe that language can have much the same effect. When English comes in, it often results in people forgetting local mythology, songs, rituals, etc, as a result of forces like Hollywood and Simon Cowell. The community withers and is replaced by the great 'meh'.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#60

Post by patrickg »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #35
patrickg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching programming to my 8 year old is a burden, because everything is in English. Teaching two things at a time is more difficult than it has to be.

A lot of the best programmers I know are foreigners, and they learned English and their respective programming languages side by side. It is a lot more useful to know English to search and ask for programming help in, than to seek help from natives of your language whose skill set may be very minimal and may not be of any use, or worse, they may suggest poor programming practice.

You did read that I was talking about an 8 year old kid who is learning the words "clothes" and "red" in school? Still a few years to go to ask for and look for programming help in English.
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