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Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

thesage21.github.io

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#41
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were curious about learning the guitar, would you first purchase the best 10,000$ guitar you could find at your local shop? No; you'd find some cheap guitar to play on initially to see if you could actually make a habit out of practising the guitar. Now if it turned out that you didn't like it, you have minimized your financial losses. Similarly, some people don't know English. Maybe they're curious about prog…

> And? Does that give your argument more weight? Yes because he is potentially one from the target audience of this. If somebody isn't willing to put in the tiny bit of effort to learn the tiny bit of english required for programming, they're not willing to put in the huge amount of effort that is required to learn programming anyways. We have enough horribly documented code that needs maintenance, there is no need t…

> Yes because he is potentially one from the target audience of this.

No, because he already knows English.

The proclamation "We should tax the rich less" is a self-serving sentence whether it comes from someone who was born into wealth, or it comes from someone who became rich later in life.

> If somebody isn't willing to put in the tiny bit of effort to learn the tiny bit of english required for programming, they're not willing to put in the huge amount of effort that is required to learn programming anyways.

I think you're coming from the viewpoint of "what would I do to learn programming if I had started from scratch today". But like I've argued, this is not a good view of the process of learning to program! It's more like you are vaguely interested in some discipline or skill, or might need it for something, and so you want to dip your toes in it. You have no idea whether you will like it or not, or how far you will take it. To put up all these demands -- what they should learn and focus in order to in time become your ideal programming colleague -- is just too much to demand of someone who is just exploring a new world to them and don't know where it will take them, if anywhere. How about they learn to actually put things like for-loops, if-statements and such together, before you demand that they should embody all the skills to write great documentation, use best practices, and whatever else?

Just think of all the different things that are "bad practices" that even experienced developers can manage to do with a clear conscience. You can't pick one aspect and demand that a green programmer should have the personality and disposition to know beforehand that such things are "bad practices". People can learn and change.

But why even bother. These topics just devolve into downvote/upvote battles.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#42

Hey, that looks awesome! The implementation approach is really simple and that's cool for a prototype, however in order to work well for libraries and the standard library, we need to use the ast. If you want, I can make a pull request with an ast-based translation(I have a lot of experience playing with python's ast) ?

Sure, would love that. Pull away!

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#44
post #37
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were curious about learning the guitar, would you first purchase the best 10,000$ guitar you could find at your local shop? No; you'd find some cheap guitar to play on initially to see if you could actually make a habit out of practising the guitar. Now if it turned out that you didn't like it, you have minimized your financial losses. Similarly, some people don't know English. Maybe they're curious about prog…

A non-English programming language is more like buying a Keytar so you can get the feel of playing guitar without having to learn something different from the piano. It's not terribly useful, and if you decide you actually want to pick up the guitar you'll just have to forget everything you've learnt and learn it all again.

Logic, imperative programming etc. is not tied to any natural language. You wouldn't have to relearn the same concepts at all.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#46
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I coded in a Brazilian Portuguese version of Logo at school. I remember there was also a Portuguese Portuguese version of the same toolkit. Both were called Megalogo. On a related note, "idiom" in English does not mean the same as "idioma" in Portuguese ;-)

I meant idiom-agnostic as format-agnostic, collective, universal: like math, music, etc...

Music is not universal (different scales are in use), and maths uses Roman & Greek lettering with the Arabic number system.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#47
This is a good idea. There are tiny differences even between en-GB and en-US. 'Colour' is the most common one, with documentation calling '#' the "pound symbol" instead of £. The first programming languages I encountered were on the Sinclair Spectrum and BBC Micro, which being British used the British spelling of COLOUR in BASIC.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#48
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scratch has the advantage of making the limitations of the computer tangible. The block nature will show you what can be done and what can't. For example, newbies in procedural languages often try things like if(something){loop = while} else {loop=if} loop{print("hi")} and it's not immediately obvious why that isn't valid in text, while in scratch it is. I don't think its the language though that makes things easier.

> if(something){loop = while} else {loop=if} loop{print("hi")} The only reason that wouldn't work is bad language design. In e.g. Smalltalk or TCL it's fine.

Thats not relevant to the point. And even smalltalk wouldn't allow this, without reflection, since method handles aren't really first class objects.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#49
post #44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-English programming language is more like buying a Keytar so you can get the feel of playing guitar without having to learn something different from the piano. It's not terribly useful, and if you decide you actually want to pick up the guitar you'll just have to forget everything you've learnt and learn it all again.

Logic, imperative programming etc. is not tied to any natural language. You wouldn't have to relearn the same concepts at all.

Then why choose a "real programming language" anyways? Go with something like scratch, or something that uses symbols to program tiny machines, like half a dozen iOS games.

"Real" programming languages aren't suited for beginners because error messages are usually to cryptic and should contain hints how to solve the problem.

Re: Show HN: Programming in non-English languages

#50
post #48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if(something){loop = while} else {loop=if} loop{print("hi")} The only reason that wouldn't work is bad language design. In e.g. Smalltalk or TCL it's fine.

Thats not relevant to the point. And even smalltalk wouldn't allow this, without reflection, since method handles aren't really first class objects.

It is exactly the point: the problem is real, but you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead you can use a simple, homoiconic, but still very "real" programming language for teaching.
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