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The double life of Hasidic atheists

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Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#31

Post by obstinate »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #28
modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

Church is a much less popular/common way to meet people than it used to be: https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/chart7.png?w=...

Online is drinking everything else's milkshake! What a graph!

It's easy to see why it appeals so well -- every candidate you examine is looking for a predictable thing, which assuming you're doing your search properly, is roughly the same as what you're looking for. There's still a significant risk that any given match won't care for you or vice versa, but it eliminates an entire layer of annoyance -- that is, that the person you're approaching is not looking for a relationship, or not looking for the kind that you are.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#32

Post by mercurial »

ars wrote: post #14
JesperRavn wrote: post #5

>[Athiests who reveal themselves] risk losing their children, especially in New York State, where custody is often given to the more religious parent. Interesting, I wonder why that would be? Is it because American courts are biased towards religious people in general? But in that case, wouldn't a liberal state like New York be less biased? Could it possibly be because of bias of courts in New York towards the Jewish…

It's an inaccurate statement. More accurately the courts award custody to the parent that did not change in religiosity. In this case it's the more religious parent, but it can be the reverse in other cases.

> More accurately the courts award custody to the parent that did not change in religiosity.

Why?

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#33

Post by obstinate »

ars wrote: post #7
knodi123 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying would certainly apply to contemporary regular jews- but I'm not so sure it's true of the Hasidim that this guy is so deeply embedded with. It really is a foreign culture, and unless you have experience with it, you'd never be able to imagine just how jewish it's possible to get.

What makes you think I don't have experience with it? Yes Hasidim would say exactly the same thing. Perhaps with some pressure to increase learning. As long as he assured people that he performed the actions, they would only have a problem if he tried to "convert" as it were others.

Surely these individuals would not go to such extents to hide their lack of belief if they knew that revealing it would be free of consequences. I can only assume that they know their communities better than you do, and so it seems unlikely that you are correct.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#34

Post by bjourne »

JesperRavn wrote: post #5

>[Athiests who reveal themselves] risk losing their children, especially in New York State, where custody is often given to the more religious parent. Interesting, I wonder why that would be? Is it because American courts are biased towards religious people in general? But in that case, wouldn't a liberal state like New York be less biased? Could it possibly be because of bias of courts in New York towards the Jewish…

In courts all around the (Western) word custody courts are heavily biased towards the mother. It would be very surprising if religiousness where a more important factor in New York State. I think the article is plain wrong on that point and that the religious level of the parents doesn't make any difference at all.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#35

Post by patmcc »

mercurial wrote: post #32
ars wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an inaccurate statement. More accurately the courts award custody to the parent that did not change in religiosity. In this case it's the more religious parent, but it can be the reverse in other cases.

> More accurately the courts award custody to the parent that did not change in religiosity. Why?

Stability is generally rewarded - sudden drastic changes to a primary parent's living situation, religion, employment, etc. is not seen as great for children. Also, sudden shifts in behaviour can happen because of serious mental illness (not saying that's true here), which courts would understandably be worried about.

If a family was mostly happy, healthy, and stable, and one parent decided to leave the family and make drastic changes (to a new religion/community/city/whatever), the safe thing would probably be to leave the kids with the piece of the family that hasn't drastically changed. Most of the time, anyway.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#36

Post by steve19 »

modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

There are plenty of atheists (or let's say non-theist) churches and organizations trying to emulate churches. There are in fact plenty of books written on the topic. I read one recently but cannot recall the name or author, essentially promoting exactly what you said in your comment (he was a UC Philosophy professor I think)

As a devout religious person, let me say there are plenty of religious folks who don't believe in God, and who do not see a contradiction in this (whether or not they say so). There are those who reject the traditional doctrine of Christianity (God included) and who those who focus so keenly on the traditions that they care little for the concept of God.

On the reverse side of the coin, there are plenty of people who I know who claim to be Rational Atheists but who are barely able to reason. I have also met people who claim to be Atheists but who are at "best" Agnostic, or "worst" they are, deep down, Thiests.

Hearing someone "I am a Christian/Muslim" means very little. Hearing them say "I am Atheist" might mean a little more (as in it is not the default choice) but also says very little about what they really believe deep down.

It comes down to who you wish to associate with. It is easier to be a Christian politician in the USA than an Atheist politician, and, if my college days were anything to go by, easier to be an Atheist student or professor than a devout religious student/professor.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#37

Post by xroche »

modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

> Perhaps somebody could start an "atheist church", but the concept is unpalatable to me

In France, a lot of atheist Jews joined Freemasonry at the beginning of the 20th century for this very reason: they were highly educated, atheists, and felt that they were missing something because they did not gather anymore for religious reasons.

But rather than flocking to pray uselessly (yes, this is a bit provocative), they used their time to think about and improve society - it would be called a "think tank" today I presume.

This led to major improvements in the french society at that time, and especially a law that separated church and state, leading to a fully secular society (so the "1905" law in France)

(And this is one of the reason why Freemasons were persecuted by the nazi-friendly governments in France during the WW2 - they were hated by far rights religious people for being atheists AND for accepting Jews, and because of previous secular laws)

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#38

Post by sliverstorm »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #26
modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

TL;DR especially in large metro areas, there are lots of other groups doing fun stuff, so I don't think (church - theism) is necessary (but it is an interesting idea). Churches aren't the only way to meet people. Festivals are great if you're in California; there's basically at least one a month if you're looking. If that's not your scene, there are tons of various meet-ups around. Not quite the same as religion, but…

Festivals etc aren't quite suited. Studies have shown that friendship etc forms best when you both "have" to be there, and regularly see eachother at these events. I'm not describing this eloquently, but basically Sunday church and weekday K-12 education are both prime substrate for forming strong friendship, while random run-ins at festivals and concerts are decidedly not.

Considering the decline in church attendance in young adulthood, and the fact that you don't attend grade school anymore, small wonder strong friendship is harder to come by.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#39

Post by sliverstorm »

davemel37 wrote: post #27
ars wrote: post #3

One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…

"Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought" This is at best an out of context understanding and at worst a complete distortion of the Jewish faith. "Service of the heart" is the core obligation of Judaism. Every single morning and evening Jews say the Shma which states the primary commandment of Judaism is to "Love G-d with all your heart, all your soul(personality), and all your resources..." Maimonid…

I don't know if this is your intent, but you have in an instant completely flipped Judaism from something interesting to this agnostic, to something completely dead-end and not worth pursuing.

A compromising approach is accessible. A hard-line "nothing less than absolute and total devotion is even worth considering, and therefore fundamentally not worth your time" is not. Where is the unsure, dubious, or curious individual to even begin, if all that is even acceptable is absolutely unwavering, unshaking, unhesitating prostration?

I realize teachings don't care what is accessible and what is not. I'm not trying to tell you what should be taught. But, just, if you ever wonder why it is shrinking instead of growing- FYI.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#40

Post by ari_ »

davemel37 wrote: post #27
ars wrote: post #3

One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…

"Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought" This is at best an out of context understanding and at worst a complete distortion of the Jewish faith. "Service of the heart" is the core obligation of Judaism. Every single morning and evening Jews say the Shma which states the primary commandment of Judaism is to "Love G-d with all your heart, all your soul(personality), and all your resources..." Maimonid…

From a strictly halachic view point, ars is actually right. If you are sabbath observant and keep kosher, but don't actually believe in God, torah from sinai etc, no one knows and you're still a kosher witness for example. (By kosher witness I mean someone allowed to bear witness in Jewish courts of law, at wedding ceremonies etc).

Conversely, if you believe in God and want to serve him, but are not that interested in Sabbath Observance for example, then strictly speaking you would be sentenced to death if there was a Sanhedrin (old high court of Jewish law, non existent since destruction of the Second Temple).

Of course if you declare your apostasy that's a separate issue.

Your claims are more how you feel about the religion then what it strictly requires. Also the Rambam's tenants are 13, not 12.

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