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The double life of Hasidic atheists

aeon.co

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Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#11

Post by JesperRavn »

rdtsc wrote: post #10

> The last time she showed signs of non-conformist behaviour, her husband consulted the community leaders. They sent her to see a mental health specialist, who medicated her. ‘The mental illness card has been used often in cases like mine,’ she wrote. She has since seen another mental health specialist; he gave her a clean bill of health. That is pretty brutal. "Mental health" was often used by opressive regimes to d…

Sad that the political power of the Hasidic community is able to result in the justice/medical system being abused like this. While people are rightly wary of other tight knit religious communities, I think that abuses like this in the Hasidic community go unchecked because it's politically unacceptable for police and politicians to criticize the Hasidic community.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#12

Post by shmerl »

ars wrote: post #3

One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…

> Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven.

That's disputable. For example there were those who claimed that observing commandments mechanically, without intending to have the spiritual effect is actually worse than not observing while intending to have it.

This idea was expressed by R' Shmuel Alexandrov[1] when he was defending non observant Jews who intend to act righteously, vs. "observant" ones who don't do it out of spiritual reasons.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_Alexandrov

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#13

Post by ori_b »

ars wrote: post #3

One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…

> One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen.

In an ideal world, yes. In the real world, humans are pretty much tribal as hell, and people want others to hold the same worldview as they do, and it hurts when someone rejects something that you consider part of the core of your being.

Jews are human too.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#14

Post by ars »

JesperRavn wrote: post #5

>[Athiests who reveal themselves] risk losing their children, especially in New York State, where custody is often given to the more religious parent. Interesting, I wonder why that would be? Is it because American courts are biased towards religious people in general? But in that case, wouldn't a liberal state like New York be less biased? Could it possibly be because of bias of courts in New York towards the Jewish…

It's an inaccurate statement. More accurately the courts award custody to the parent that did not change in religiosity.

In this case it's the more religious parent, but it can be the reverse in other cases.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#15

Post by ars »

rdtsc wrote: post #10

> The last time she showed signs of non-conformist behaviour, her husband consulted the community leaders. They sent her to see a mental health specialist, who medicated her. ‘The mental illness card has been used often in cases like mine,’ she wrote. She has since seen another mental health specialist; he gave her a clean bill of health. That is pretty brutal. "Mental health" was often used by opressive regimes to d…

It's more likely that he really did think she had a problem and was trying to help. Not that he was trying to abuse the medical system to get his way.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#17

Post by modeless »

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of going to church as an atheist.

Perhaps somebody could start an "atheist church", but the concept is unpalatable to me. I don't want atheism to define my life in the same way belief defines the life of religious adherents. I don't want to attend atheist classes or listen to an atheist preacher or be around evangelical atheists. I just want a large community of people who stick together, follow a common moral code, support each other, and have regular social events.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#18

Post by guard-of-terra »

modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

There are non-religious communities as well. Take music fans for example. They do all that social gatherings stuff. Board games players also.

And at least their object of praise provably exists.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#19

Post by schoen »

modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

Someone did start an atheist church along these lines:

http://sundayassembly.com/

This is at least the second time that people have done so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_movement

I don't have any experience with either movement, so I don't know whether they would be very similar to or very different from what you would like.

Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists

#20

Post by dropit_sphere »

modeless wrote: post #17

I find myself jealous of these people. For the price of a little hypocrisy, you get to be part of a very supportive community. You get structure for your life, a large number of social gatherings, and a big pool of potential friends and romantic partners. I almost considered going to church just for that reason (back when I was in college and friends with a lot of devout Christians), but I couldn't stomach the hypocr…

You might enjoy Scott Alexander's post on this topic:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/24/there-are-rules-here/

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