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“A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

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Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#231
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, Urbit has neoreactionary politics hard-coded into the network layer. I don't know if that was to be discussed in this particular talk (usually the Nock/Hoon stuff is so weird people never get to the rest), but if Yarvin/Moldbug can't keep political rants out of his documentation then I think it's fair to consider the politics as part of the technology.

True, but meaningless. Any OS that has the concept of a root or admin user with total control has monarchy hard-coded into it too.

Which is not actually meaningless. Technical features like "root user" or "wheel group of root-capable users" have political implications. From `info su` [0]:

> Sometimes a few of the users try to hold total power over all the rest. For example, in 1984, a few users at the MIT AI lab decided to seize power by changing the operator password on the Twenex system and keeping it secret from everyone else. (I was able to thwart this coup and give power back to the users by patching the kernel, but I wouldn't know how to do that in Unix.)

> However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of the rulers.

> I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you might find this idea strange at first.

— Richard Stallman

My understanding of Urbit comes mostly from this writeup on Popehat [1] and an initial foray into the documentation of Nock and Hoon. However, the impression that I get of it enabling encrypted, distributed programs, does mirror Yarvin's proposed "Patchwork" system of nation-states [2], in the same way that a single root user mirrors a monarchy, and with analogous pros and cons between the technical and political systems.

[0]: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/4460/why-is-debian-n...

[1]: http://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-...

[2]: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/11/patchwo...

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#232
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Natives did not make good slaves, and so Africans were imported." That alone is so innocuous as to appear in elementary school textbooks. Is this really what the whole row is about?

I do not accept the premise of this argument, unless we're talking about textbooks from the 1910s.

It was stated as fact as late as the early 90's in my own textbooks, and I attended a private school in the NY metro area.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#233
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never refused to work with anyone because of their political beliefs.

Calling support for slavery a "political belief" is rather tame at best and outright misleading at worst.

I haven't read a Moldbug post that actually supported slavery.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#234

The repeated kills of previous threads on this topic illustrate the problem goes much deeper than Strangeloop. HN itself has long been policed by left wing stormtroopers eliminating anything they disagree with. I used to believe it could be saved but now I generally believe that the era of technology having a place for iconoclastic freethinkers is long over.

There's nothing "iconoclastically freethinking" about espousing centuries-old, dehumanizing views accepted uncritically by a regional majority.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#235
post #202
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a number of people who voiced their objections on Twitter. It's easy to ask the rhetorical question here, but if you really want an answer, go check out what they said. In particular, people who represent groups that Moldbug treats as subhuman in his writing expressed concern and dismay. Perhaps looking through their eyes for a moment might illuminate why a person would care.

Ironically, the St. Louis hacker who first suggested urbit would be a great fit for Strange Loop (hi Justin!) is an African-American. An obsession with collective identity and collective characteristics - all proletarians are noble, all Germans are masters, all rednecks are racists, etc, etc - is common, perhaps for obvious reasons, in the democratic era. And in particular, all parties responsible for the atrocities…

Urbit --

Since we have you have you here, could you respond to the accusations of racist views that are being attributed to you? In particular, do you consider yourself to be "racist", and if so, what does this term mean to you?

I read your blog for years, and I never got that sense that you were advocating for personal or institutional discrimination against individuals on the basis of their race. Did I miss this point among all the others?

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#236
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of extremist attacks a child because of their father's political views?

Somebody who believes in their cause. While I wouldn't take it out on a child, I won't want to associate with somebody who was against gay marriage or try to save somebody who was against women's rights to their own bodies. I feel that anybody who spends time with the people they strongly disagree with, when they don't have to, lack a moral backbone.

That's just weird. I strongly disagree with some of my favorite people.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#237
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling support for slavery a "political belief" is rather tame at best and outright misleading at worst.

I haven't read a Moldbug post that actually supported slavery.

In that Carlyle essay, he says these, among other things:

"Once we get this far, we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We have not agreed that a man can be born a slave, but we agree that he can sell himself into slavery. That is: he can sign a contract with a master in which the slave agrees unconditionally to obey and work for the master, and the master agrees unconditionally to protect and support the slave.

Moreover, this contract need not be a mere expression of sentiment. It can and should be enforced by the State, just as a loan is. If the slave changes his mind and runs away, the State will capture and return him, billing the master for the expense. Or at least, these are reasonable terms under which two parties might agree on the permanent relationship of master and slave."

"A person makes a good slave if he is loyal, patient, and not exceptionally bright or stubborn. But even great intelligence is not necessarily a bar to a good experience in slavery, as the experience of many Greek slave philosophers, such as Epictetus, shows. A slave must carry the unique burden of personal dependency and obedience, which we are all used to expressing only toward impersonal government agencies."

"Of course, like gay marriage (or ordinary marriage), slavery is not without its abuses. When we think of the word 'slavery,' we think of these abuses. Thus, by defining the word as intrinsically abusive, like marriages in which one party beats the other, we can conveniently define away all the instances of slavery (or, for that matter, marriage) in which the relationship is functional."

I mean, if those are not actually supporting slavery, it seems to be only because he takes care to voice a lot of pro-slavery rhetoric without actually crossing that line.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#238
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read a lot of extreme things from both the left and right, and seen a lot of "insane screeds", but this wasn't one of them: https://improprietaryinfluence.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/a-st...

"After all, the people we are talking about are communists... Similarly, today, with the exception of a few points of economics, the ideas that almost everyone in communion with Harvard University believes are communist ideas, and would have been labelled as such even fifty years ago." This is a core tenet of Moldbuggian neoreaction, that American and European politics are run by a "Cathedral" that adheres to communi…

His view is almost coherent and makes me reflect on how I unconsciously polish the edges of my own ideas to make them fit. I can see him doing the kind of thing you or I or anyone sane might do to smooth out the rough spots in our belief systems, and seeing him do those apparently innocuous things with ideas that are obviously crazy encourages me to ask if I'm believing anything crazy myself. It has happened before.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#239
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kind that uses logic and reason instead of rhetorical appeals to emotion. The 'personal is the political' is part of the culture in california and is common throughout the state. And if you don't believe me, you should go on a job hunt and tell every interviewer who talks to you that you're a republican. Now that I think about it, I want to do just that and document the results. Should be interesting.

Interviewers are generally not allowed to ask you about your political positions or take them into account in any way. Frankly, talking about one's politics at an interview for an apolitical position would be so inappropriate as to reasonably raise concerns about the interviewee's impulse control and judgment.

Clarification (at least from a USA perspective): Interviewers are not generally banned from asking about your political affiliation. In many states, there are protections against discrimination based upon political leanings, but they are not implemented across the board nationally.*

As a good rule of thumb: if you really want the job, do not volunteer potential employers anything about yourself that you don't think would help you get hired. They aren't cops or courts; depending on how laws are crafted state-to-state, they are legally allowed to consider some categories of information that they aren't legally allowed to ask you outright if you volunteer it.

*There are protections in place for the bureaucracy itself, but they were implemented for practical reasons early in the country's history when it was observed that a party change leading to a clean sweep of the federal government right down to the last front-desk agent regardless of their capabilities in the task at hand was highly inefficient.

Re: “A Statement with My View on Curtis Yarvin and Strange Loop”

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I only saw two twitter comments complaining before the disinvitation, and one of those was proud communist Steve Klabnik.

There was a way to point out that Klabnik's politics may conflict him out of this debate, but calling him a "proud communist" wasn't it. Personal attacks aren't allowed on HN. Sometimes the line between personal attack and ideological critique is blurry. The closer you get to that line here, the more carefully you need to write.

Whether or not Klabnik is a real communist, this raises what I consider to be a pretty interesting thought experiment for testing our intuitions:

Suppose that a speaker were accepted to a tech conference who either jokingly or seriously described himself as a communist (I assure you that there are many such people here in the valley). And suppose that the organizer of the conference then disinvited that speaker saying:

"We have striven to create an open and inclusive conference representing many diverse viewpoints. Mr X's views were recently brought to my attention by a number of people. In light of the fact that some of our attendees were raised in the Former Soviet Union, Former Yugoslavia, and Mainland China, many of them having fled from considerable persecution, some of whom had close family members murdered by the regimes; I do not think Mr. X presenting here would be conducive to these individuals having a pleasant and safe experience at the conference."

How all would we react to such an event? Would you all be taking the same sides that you are now? If not, why not?

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