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Against Tulip Subsidies

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Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#51

Everyone who's looked into this issue knows the solution is to use examinations rather than education - a degree should be given if you can pass some stringent examinations regardless of how the knowledge got into your head. You separate instruction from assessment and the incentives work out much, much better. And the cost goes way, way down. However, we are stuck in this horrible equilbrium and I don't see much hop…

When I'm hiring for a startup, I look for someone who can do the job well. When I used to be hiring for a large multi-national, I was more interested in someone who could do the job and put up with a certain (large) amount of institutional bullshit.

A high GPA from a challenging school is a "signal" for just that very thing.

Part of what follows is edited from a WSJ column from 2007...

Most of us would agree that most professional jobs require a basic intellectual aptitude. And what has changed since the 1970s is that the court has developed a body of law that prevents employers from directly screening for such aptitude. The landmark case was Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971). A black coal miner claimed discrimination because his employer required a high-school diploma and an intelligence test as prerequisites for promotion to a more skilled position. The court ruled 8-0 in the miner's favor. "Good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as 'built-in headwinds' for minority groups," Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote.

This became known as the "disparate impact" test, and it applies only in employment law. Colleges and universities remain free to use aptitude tests, and elite institutions in particular lean heavily on exams such as the SAT in deciding whom to admit. For a prospective employee, obtaining a college degree is a very expensive way of showing that he has, in effect, passed an IQ test.

But why are employers able to get away with requiring a degree without running afoul of Griggs? Because colleges and universities -- again, especially elite ones -- go out of their way to discriminate in favor of minorities. By admitting blacks and Hispanics with much lower SAT scores than their white and Asian classmates, purportedly in order to promote "diversity," these institutions launder the exam of its disparity.

Thus the higher-education industry and corporate employers have formed a symbiotic relationship in which the former profits by acting as the latter's gatekeeper and shield against civil-rights lawsuits. Little wonder that in 2003, when the Supreme Court considered the constitutionality of discriminatory admissions policies at the University of Michigan, 65 Fortune 500 companies filed a friend-of-the-court brief urging that they be upheld.

What is happening now, though, is that now that everyone "needs" a degree to get a job - standards for entry, getting good grades and graduating are being lowered. And subsidies kick in (OP's article's point). There is even a push now to lower the standards for the bar exam. This is crucial because part of competition between legal degree programs is % of graduates able to pass that bar. With lowering the bar for entry and grades, the percentage drops. Which looks bad. Instead of fixing the problem, they are trying to fix the optics.

What I am worried about w/ any certification-only program is exactly this same phenomenon. The signal of the certificate and the truth of the certificate diverge as the bars are lowered. People stop treating it as a trustworthy signal.

Employers, reasonably, want people who can do the job or learn how to do the job. And there are a lot of candidates to work through. If you can't test them and if the degrees -- or certificates -- are worthless signals, then ... I don't know where we end up.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#52
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Less probable" is still competing for the same jobs. Perhaps not as well, but competing nonetheless.

I call this the Einstein fallacy. It says that quality Q is of questionable relevance/utility/value because there exist people without quality Q that do X, even though the vast majority of people who do X have quality Q. But that argument is kind of insane. If you want a job at Google, you're much better off getting a degree from a good university. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. (EDIT: And no, App Academy g…

>Are you saying that the average app academy graduate makes ~6 figures right after finishing the academy?

Yes. I know of a/A graduates who have accepted offers at $90k, $100k, and $115k. The $90k was their first offer, and the general reaction was that declining it in favor of continuing the search was probably higher value.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#53
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it so difficult to tell if someone has a university education or not without having to explicitly ask, then perhaps it isn't as essential as you seem to think? It is trivially easy to think up questions that any Computer Science student from a non-crappy university will be able to answer, but someone without a degree probably will likely not be able to answer. Just pick a particularly challenging problem off of…

"If the job is designing a distributed system for real-time processing of data at 100s of GB/s of data that nobody has tried processing at that speed before, the single set of questions that tell you whether this person is competent is far less obvious. ... Fortunately, university courses have midterms and finals that do exactly this." But solving problems that nobody has solved before is the kind of job that's usual…

> But solving problems that nobody has solved before is the kind of job that's usually filled by senior developers

> By the time you have 5-10 years of work experience, the things you learned during your working career probably play a much more important role than the stuff you learned in college

I submit these two quotes are not contradictions, but are at least in tension.

In general, 5 years hacking out code doesn't prepare you to write code that's mathematics heavy or design systems that require careful mathematical analysis.

> If I've spent the last ten years actually designing distributed systems, why does it matter whether I've gone to college or not?

It doesn't. But I bet I can pay a fresh CMU/MIT grad less, and that they'll be able to figure things out.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#54
Requiring a degree for a job that doesn't utilize the information the acquisition of which the degree is meant to connote is clearly untenable. That's a given. The author is on point about market demands for higher education being inflated but is way off base about the value and role of education in society and economy, and his dismissal of Bernie Sanders's proposal for free higher education is similarly untenable. The main failing in the author's argument is a poor framing of the issue. The author assumes that the economy and society can be planned without acknowledging the social harm a planned economy and society will necessarily cause. Furthermore, the author assumes that our economy and society can be planned - a false assumption - and that the government's primary role is in planning the lives of its citizens rather than assuring their lives, liberty, and opportunity - a very dangerous one. The author frames education as a doorway to a career, when in truth it is more akin to a hallway allowing access to many more doors than are available without it. Worst of all, the author is completely incorrect about the main pressures causing a rise in the price of education.

Take the argument not to allow free education as per the Sanders proposal. To reduce it to absurdity, what impetus is there for us to educate plumbers beyond middle school (8th grade)? From what I know of the profession, most of the education they will utilize has already been acquired. What impetus is there for us to educate fast food workers beyond elementary school (6th grade)? From what I know of the profession, most of the education they will utilize has already been acquired. What reason at all is there to educate police officers? From what I know of the profession, they aim at POC regardless of whether there's a multiple homicide or a birthday party in progress; such simple instructions require no education.

The impetus is that we don't live in a planned economy and society. We don't know who will be what when, and we don't want to enforce that such decisions be made once and for all at any point in a person's life. A kid might want to be a fast food worker, like his dad, in 1st grade; a firefighter, like the men who recently saved his little sister from a house fire, in 6th grade; a police officer, to eradicate the drugs ruining his neighborhood, in 12th grade; a lawyer, to protect the poor renters like his parents from being evicted due to gentrification, as an undergrad; a software engineer, to his account book back into the black, when he fails to get into a law school. Individual lives are very chaotic and our expectations of what we want to do change throughout our lives. And in facilitating our ability to dynamically change course, education is the cornerstone. It's easy to look at the current occupation of a person and say, "You're a software engineer. You didn't need any of those Legal Studies courses or History courses or Latin-American studies courses.", but to do so is to dehumanize the person and her life experience, it is to discount her earlier hopes and dreams and ambitions, her current regrets and pains and struggle, it is to shrink wrap a person inside her professional title and place her on a supermarket shelf, deriding her "extra, useless" ingredients while doing so.

In this the author is also incorrect in distilling the value of education to the knowledge a degree or diploma is meant to proclaim. Education is also an experience. It's a breather while we choose course. Our economy is becoming so dynamic and unpredictable for such large sectors that during our middle years (30s-50s) and even soon after college, many of us change professions to more profitable sectors. And that's nothing to say about what we want to accomplish with our time on this planet. Those questions loom forever large on the horizon for much of our lives. College allows us to interact with thousands of others in a similar lost state. A college town is filled with mapmakers trying to see which way to go to "get there." Interacting with them gives a person the ability to see a little bit more of what her possibilities and potential can be. College helps those of us who are still lost after high school to get unlost. And even college is proving insufficient as a compass and square. Many, if not most, of us are still lost after college.

Moreover, we don't want to be living in a planned economy or society. We have done that before in the developed world, and much of the 2nd and 3rd world is doing that now. And along which lines would be plan our economy? Would we tie down youngsters to what they want to do at age 22? 18? 14? 12? 6? Would we force them to pursue their parents' profession? Answers to such questions are the basis of a very draconian government.

The "waste" of extra education is the price we must pay to allow ourselves varied opportunities and possibilities. Sanders is correct in urging the US to universally pay for higher education. Sanders's call is especially urgent to us as we are finding that many of us must go back to college or night classes much later in life to work for the remaining 10, 15, 20 years before the government will allow us to retire with enough in Social Security to live comfortably. Many middle-aged workers are finding themselves without work after the effects of the ongoing high tech revolution. Going or returning to college at the government's expense would allow them to take time and resources to direct their lives in a direction more desirable for them. In fact, Sanders's proposal, if it were to include living expenses as well as tuition, would be an excellent solution to homelessness. Not only would we be providing food and shelter, we would be providing a chance at a more meaningful life for those who deem it more meaningful and can't afford it.

The tech industry and its moguls are quite taken to pointing to a few outliers and saying that college is not essential, and to encourage college and high school students to drop out and pursue their dreams, entirely dismissing that those dreams might change in a year or even a month. The underlying assumption is that we magically know what to do with our lives at all times. But the truth is closer to most of us being lost throughout our lives. Dropping out and pursuing your life dream is great for those few for whom it works (Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos comes to mind), but the plan fails for a much greater number of us who end up going back to college anyway to improve our station in life at least.

I am suspicious as to whether the rising, oft frivolous degree requirements for many professions is due in part to a higher availability of such degrees. Why hire a high school graduate when you can get a more woman who graduated with a BA in History to do your firefighting? The woman holding the BA has demonstrated that she is smart and gets things done - at least enough to get a BA in History. If History BAs are applying, it should increase the requirements of getting the firefighting job. To turn the author's argument on its head, I assert that there is higher demand for education not because some jobs are requiring education when it is unnecessary, but because more of us are pursuing higher education to direct or re-stabilize our lives and some jobs are requiring education when it is unnecessary because it is becoming pore plentiful and readily available in our economy and society. And that's a good thing. People should be better educated, especially in the Liberal Arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education) and Humanities. It would dramatically increase the quality of life for all of us. Or at least it would stop repeated isolated incidents of young Black men getting shot in this country.

As a last thought, I'm reminded of a recent NY Times (?) article posted on HN which ended with something akin to "Everyone is sure college isn't right for everyone, except their own kids."

Long post. Sorry for any mistakes.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#55
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a view that rich people can afford to hold. Poor or middle class people cannot reasonably afford to pay four years of opportunity cost, plus tuition, for "general life enrichment." ...In countries that don't subsidize higher education to a point where this isn't a problem. We can debate whether the cost to society is worth it, but just because something is out-of-reach in the status quo doesn't mean it's impo…

Even in those countries, you are giving up four years of wages. The only reason any ordinary person does that is because they expect to get something out of it beyond mere life enrichment.

If you consider this argument fully, It's hard to defend retirement - or anything else people do without profit motives.

I'm listening to music without any expectation of profit, giving up time I could spend making money. I consider this life enrichment. Actually, besides opportunity costs, I paid literal cash money to be able to do this.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are able to trivially weed out those who do not have a CS degree, and having a CS degree carries with it the necessary skills to do an previously unattempted processing task, then doesn't the former naturally solve the latter? The author does not seem to have a problem with testing for the presence of skills, like your algorithm question, but making an assumption that someone does not have skills based on thei…

> but making an assumption that someone does not have skills based on their race, gender, sexual preference, or credentials is where he takes issue. This is answered entirely in my original post. Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing, which is a prohibitive cost. Fortunately, a huge portion of the potential employees I have to interview already took those tests throughout…

> Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing

So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? I'm left confused as this contradicts your earlier post.

> A degree is something that is earned and requires time and effort on the part of the student.

On the flip side, is it not insulting to someone who put in that time and effort via non-traditional means to be passed over because you metaphorically "didn't like the color of their skin"?

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#57
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call this the Einstein fallacy. It says that quality Q is of questionable relevance/utility/value because there exist people without quality Q that do X, even though the vast majority of people who do X have quality Q. But that argument is kind of insane. If you want a job at Google, you're much better off getting a degree from a good university. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. (EDIT: And no, App Academy g…

>Are you saying that the average app academy graduate makes ~6 figures right after finishing the academy? Yes. I know of a/A graduates who have accepted offers at $90k, $100k, and $115k. The $90k was their first offer, and the general reaction was that declining it in favor of continuing the search was probably higher value.

Average, which has been hammered home in three posts now. Anecdotes are non-answers.

Edit: Incidentally, according to App Academy's own numbers, they're about $10k behind Stanford in average salary (and, I'd argue, the comparison is apples and oranges to begin with. Stanford graduates are much more geographically distributed, that's noise. Many Stanford graduates will go on to graduate school, that's noise. Some a/A graduates already have a college degree or experience in another industry, that's noise. And so on.)

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but making an assumption that someone does not have skills based on their race, gender, sexual preference, or credentials is where he takes issue. This is answered entirely in my original post. Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing, which is a prohibitive cost. Fortunately, a huge portion of the potential employees I have to interview already took those tests throughout…

> Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? I'm left confused as this contradicts your earlier post. > A degree is something that is earned and requires time and effort on the part of the student. On the flip side, is it not insulting to someone who put in that time and effort via non-traditional means to be passed…

> So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree?

It is trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree. The bulk of a CS degree can be a necessary but not sufficient qualification for a job. Testing for just the extra stuff is far easier than testing for everything.

This isn't rocket science.

(And no, discriminating based on credentials is not tantamount to racism. I would have hopes the problems with this analogy were fairly obvious...)

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#59
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? I'm left confused as this contradicts your earlier post. > A degree is something that is earned and requires time and effort on the part of the student. On the flip side, is it not insulting to someone who put in that time and effort via non-traditional means to be passed…

> So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? It is trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree. The bulk of a CS degree can be a necessary but not sufficient qualification for a job. Testing for just the extra stuff is far easier than testing for everything. This isn't rocket science. (And no, discriminating based on credentials is not tantamount to racism. I would have hopes the problems with…

I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding you, but the logic doesn't seem to follow. If you can trivially test for a CS degree then you already have all the other testing that comes with a CS degree by association. Why would you take weeks or months to test everything in a CS degree when you already know a CS degree is present via your trivial test?

> And no, discriminating based on credentials is not tantamount to racism.

You are, however, judging someone's abilities on their outward appearance even though in our hypothetical situation the person is equally skilled as anyone else. It may not be racism exactly, but still morally wrong for many reasons. That should be fairly obvious.

Re: Against Tulip Subsidies

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adequately testing for the presence of skills might take weeks or months of testing So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? I'm left confused as this contradicts your earlier post. > A degree is something that is earned and requires time and effort on the part of the student. On the flip side, is it not insulting to someone who put in that time and effort via non-traditional means to be passed…

> So it is not trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree? It is trivial to test for the presence of a CS degree. The bulk of a CS degree can be a necessary but not sufficient qualification for a job. Testing for just the extra stuff is far easier than testing for everything. This isn't rocket science. (And no, discriminating based on credentials is not tantamount to racism. I would have hopes the problems with…

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