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The real scars of Korean gaming

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Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#91

Post by throwaway9324 »

jacalata wrote: post #65
throwaway9324 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's plenty of different from other pro sports. The "pro" part largely means getting paid more than it takes to sustain the activity. With some exceptions like pro boxing which isn't exactly a poster boy for ethical practices.

Thats not true in the slightest. I know a pro strongman who doesn't make enough in prize money to cover his training, let alone flying to contests, and I used to work in pro tennis where the bottom tier (still pro players) are borrowing money and living off relatives and national sports grants.

I've realized that this is pretty useless to discuss on HN, with downvotes and anecdotal evidence.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#92

Post by hacst »

MichaelGG wrote: post #90
kendallpark wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a difference in that sports like football and basketball are more limited by the body's abilities to perform. A natural mechanism for moderation. You don't have gaming binges where someone plays football for 18 hours straight without sleeping. But this happens all the time with gaming. Furthermore, most traditional sports also improve one's physiological health. This is not the case for e-sports wher…

Is it true that competitive sports are actually physically healthy? I'm probably just over valuing notable cases, but even things like ballet tear up feet pretty badly. And tennis is known for injuries, isn't it? American football is rough, though I suppose normal football is basically the same as targeted running/sprinting.

At the very top you'll probably have to search very hard to find a sport that is actually good for your health. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XnQyI3Mgbc is a great documentary on what it takes to win gold in the Olympics. These athletes knowingly - and willingly - trade their health for a shot at their goals.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#93

Post by ufmace »

kendallpark wrote: post #86
zo1 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and because it's part of the "normal culture", then no-one bats an eye (I exaggerate a bit there). If we were to look at football and basketball sports' effect on children, and how pervasive and time-consuming it is to normal teens/young-adults the same way we do when it comes to "e-sports", then we'd be positively disgusted (a bit of extrapolation there).

I think there is a difference in that sports like football and basketball are more limited by the body's abilities to perform. A natural mechanism for moderation. You don't have gaming binges where someone plays football for 18 hours straight without sleeping. But this happens all the time with gaming. Furthermore, most traditional sports also improve one's physiological health. This is not the case for e-sports wher…

I thought I read somewhere that most physical sports aren't really that healthy when played at the intensity level needed to be a national-level star. Everything in moderation, and all that.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#94

Post by slavik81 »

MichaelGG wrote: post #90
kendallpark wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a difference in that sports like football and basketball are more limited by the body's abilities to perform. A natural mechanism for moderation. You don't have gaming binges where someone plays football for 18 hours straight without sleeping. But this happens all the time with gaming. Furthermore, most traditional sports also improve one's physiological health. This is not the case for e-sports wher…

Is it true that competitive sports are actually physically healthy? I'm probably just over valuing notable cases, but even things like ballet tear up feet pretty badly. And tennis is known for injuries, isn't it? American football is rough, though I suppose normal football is basically the same as targeted running/sprinting.

Soccer players hit the ball with their head. Hard. I'd be unsurprised if that resulted in measurable damage after a few years.

In fact, it seems it does. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-heading-a-soc...

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#95

Post by majormajor »

throwaway9324 wrote: post #24
culturestate wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as different as you think. Base salary in minor league baseball, for instance, is ~US$1500 per month, and they only get paid during the season. That obviously changes with service time -- and any service in the majors bumps it up disproportionately -- but guys who toil for 5 or 10 years in the minors without making it to the big club aren't getting rich.

This is kind of an exception though when it comes to popular team sports and far as I know E-sport is still far from even those relatively bad pay and terms.

Not really. NBA D-League and minor league hockey salaries aren't exactly anything to write home about either.

And then there's football, where the "minor leagues" are 3 years unpaid in college, where you not only have to batter your body without getting paid, you also have to keep up academic performance at the same time (wouldn't it make more sense to make some money playing football trying to get to the NFL, and then if you don't make it, having that money to get an education if desired on your own schedule, without having to do both at once?).

I often wonder if this, or the similar Hollywood model, is where Silicon Valley will eventually end up. The model is already quite similar, the money at the bottom just hasn't been squeezed out the same way yet. But there is pressure on first time founders who raise funding to pay themselves the minimum at first "to keep them focused," and the same applies to early employee equity stakes. We even have the tech-scene focused gossip/hero-worship of the Hollywood or pro sports scenes down pat!

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#96

Post by snarfy »

MichaelGG wrote: post #89
snarfy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a similar experience, except it was with the Tekken series fighting games. At one point I was ranked in the top 20 in NA. I had a few chances over the years to play the top 5 in NA, and #3 from Korea. The difference in skill level as you go from #20 down to #1 can be huge. I would have 50% chance against one of the other top 20, but that would go to maybe 5% against someone in the top 5, 1% against #1, and 0…

Neat. How does the skill gap change the higher you go? That is, #5 vs #1, is the chance close to equal, or is there that much of a power gap? (There's probably a mathematical description of what I'm asking; I just don't know the name, if someone cares to enlighten me.) Any speculation on the cause? Is playing at #20 just not so time-dominating, but top 5 is a real full-time career? What factors are at work?

In the Tekken scene (this was 14 years ago), the main differences were competitive - the #1-5 all played each other regularly. They were in a league of their own, as were the Koreans. Time dedicated is also a big factor.

You have ~1/4 second (10-15 frames depending on throw) to analyze and react to perform a throw escape, which is pushing the limits of human reaction time. If the buttons are 1,2,3,4, throw escapes were typically 1,2, or 1+2 (rarely 3&4). If you hit the correct button for the throw, you escaped it.

At first, nobody ever escapes throws. It happens too fast. With practice, you can successfully attempt an escape, but it's only a guess at 1,2, or 1+2. You go from 0% success to 33% success.

But you can tell what the escape is by the animation. A 1 escape shows the characters left arm more forward than the right, a 2 and the right arm is more forward, 1+2 and both arms move in unison. If you are really fast and analyze which escapes to do, you can escape throws 100% of the time. This requires more than practice - it requires continuous training, even conditioning to increase your metabolic rate (which changes your perception of time).

This is the difference between the #1-5 guys and everybody else. They could always escape throws, without guessing.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#97

Post by EC1 »

spiritplumber wrote: post #31
EC1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent four years of my life dedicated to StarCraft. I made GM several seasons on NA ladder. I made GM on Korean ladder for one season. I played many top tier players, and I beat them. Repeatedly. Then I decided to invest in flying myself down to Dreamhack. All the people I played online and beat about 50% of the time and made connections with, I lost to every single time. There's many like me, top tier players but…

That's really interesting, could you do an AMA?

Where? Here? Reddit? Haha, probably pointless as nobody has ever really heard of me. There's dozens of players like me, dozens! Ask whatever you want.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#98

Post by com2kid »

frik wrote: post #72
forthefuture wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading. The most popular competitive games: League of Legends, Dota 2, CSGO, and SC2, are all PC exclusives. The problem with RTS games isn't that they don't work on consoles, it's that they aren't that fun to play for most people. It takes a long to play a single game, and there's no progression. With the push to make strategy games more like RPGs (heck look at all of the FPS games with "loadouts" and RP…

> it's that they aren't that fun to play for most people I question if repetitive games like MOBAs are really more fun , or just have an greedy and addicted game mechanics that has been pioneered with the old Diablo 1 (1996). Is it only me that playing MOBA is to let your off steam, clear your mind like playing a simple ego-shooter or passively watching a TV series on your sofa after you come home from hard work. Or…

MOBAs have a killer learning curve. You only know you can be better because for about a month straight when you first start you just /lose/ to people who are obviously better.

But you do improve, and you start to feel like a bad ass.

Of course then ELO comes in and ensures you only ever win 50% of the time. It is always made obvious that there is another level of skill above what you currently possess.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#99

Post by hellbanner »

EC1 wrote: post #97
spiritplumber wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting, could you do an AMA?

Where? Here? Reddit? Haha, probably pointless as nobody has ever really heard of me. There's dozens of players like me, dozens! Ask whatever you want.

I'm curious how you saw the metagame evolve -- did top players invest in a character or team only to find that they were weaker to an evolved metagame?

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#100

Post by throwaway9324 »

majormajor wrote: post #95
throwaway9324 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of an exception though when it comes to popular team sports and far as I know E-sport is still far from even those relatively bad pay and terms.

Not really. NBA D-League and minor league hockey salaries aren't exactly anything to write home about either. And then there's football, where the "minor leagues" are 3 years unpaid in college, where you not only have to batter your body without getting paid, you also have to keep up academic performance at the same time (wouldn't it make more sense to make some money playing football trying to get to the NFL, and th…

College football is amateur i.e. not professional.

You can go down any sport and find divisions that aren't paid very well, likewise you can find obscure sports that consider themselves professional but aren't very well paid either. I find none of this particularly relevant to the discussion. There are huge differences between how e-sport works and how professional sports organisations work and I guess the people who don't believe that will just have to remain ignorant.

SV is already there to some degree. With angel type funding you will spend most of you salary on living expenses which won't return very good quality of life.

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