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The real scars of Korean gaming

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Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#31

Post by spiritplumber »

EC1 wrote: post #11
panorama wrote: post #2

Sometimes you pay a price to be able to do the things you love. However, the plight isn't necessarily with Lee Young Ho (aka "FlaSh"), who was winning $50,000 tournaments multiple times a year while on a 200-300k per year salary (I stopped following after the end of professional Brood War, not sure what it's like now). The plight lies with those who aren't among the top 1% in their already elite field who are subject…

I spent four years of my life dedicated to StarCraft. I made GM several seasons on NA ladder. I made GM on Korean ladder for one season. I played many top tier players, and I beat them. Repeatedly. Then I decided to invest in flying myself down to Dreamhack. All the people I played online and beat about 50% of the time and made connections with, I lost to every single time. There's many like me, top tier players but…

That's really interesting, could you do an AMA?

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#32

Post by bad_user »

dylanjermiah wrote: post #23
panorama wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true, it's not adults getting into pro-gaming, it's usually teenagers. Kids who would rather play Starcraft than study, and, despite being very good, lack the foresight of knowing what kind of hole they're digging themselves into.

I agree, in my opinion there are more productive and 'healthy' uses of ones time. But, my opinion doesn't mean anything. Forcing/coercing kids into doing what you think is best for them is not productive either.

Making choices for children, who are otherwise too immature, is the whole point of parenting. Of course, you can "coerce" them, or you can "guide" them, but then we are talking about different means for the same end goal. And then we can talk about parents that are too busy or uninterested to give a fuck and it's precisely in such families that you see children being allowed to play computer games for hours on end.

I don't really get the line on "forcing/coercing" children. If your child would end up a drug addict, would you just let her be? Why is it any different with computer gaming addiction?

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#33

Post by __P »

rwallace wrote: post #30
blumkvist wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article past the headline? >One of his colleagues later suggested that if I'd been interviewing the world's most-decorated marathon champion, I wouldn't be surprised if they had damaged knees. >Nor would I suggest a footballer needing surgery was "too far", the phrase I'd used to describe Mr Lee's arm. >He had a point.

I would suggest a footballer needing surgery is "too far". The purpose of sports is to provide a framework that motivates healthy exercise. Once it gets to the point where it's frequently causing harm rather than benefit to the participants, the purpose has been lost along with any reason society should consider the activity normal or tolerable.

... I'm pretty sure that is not the purpose of sports. The purpose from my perspective is: Advertising, Gambling, and entertainment. Since when has it been at all about exercise? Defensive Linesmen are hardly a "healthy exercise" motivation.

Sports that have little to do with exercise:

- Racing (Horse, car, hound)

- Chess

- MMA (While they are super fit, it isn't "healthy")

- Boxing

- Bowling

- Sumo (nothing healthy there)

... The list could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#34

Post by JonoBB »

panorama wrote: post #2

Sometimes you pay a price to be able to do the things you love. However, the plight isn't necessarily with Lee Young Ho (aka "FlaSh"), who was winning $50,000 tournaments multiple times a year while on a 200-300k per year salary (I stopped following after the end of professional Brood War, not sure what it's like now). The plight lies with those who aren't among the top 1% in their already elite field who are subject…

Lest anyone thinks that this is not big business, the largest prize pool in gaming is the Dota International (held once a year).

It's currently sitting at > $12m (split between 5 players on a team, their manager, and who knows who else). It will probably rise to over $15m by the time the tournament is on.

Of interest is that the prize pool comes from the "normal" players playing the game - you buy in game items, and 25% of the revenue from that goes to the prize pool for the tournament. The items themselves are completely optional and cosmetic only. And, of course, valve takes the other 75%.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#35

Post by fredoliveira »

EC1 wrote: post #11
panorama wrote: post #2

Sometimes you pay a price to be able to do the things you love. However, the plight isn't necessarily with Lee Young Ho (aka "FlaSh"), who was winning $50,000 tournaments multiple times a year while on a 200-300k per year salary (I stopped following after the end of professional Brood War, not sure what it's like now). The plight lies with those who aren't among the top 1% in their already elite field who are subject…

I spent four years of my life dedicated to StarCraft. I made GM several seasons on NA ladder. I made GM on Korean ladder for one season. I played many top tier players, and I beat them. Repeatedly. Then I decided to invest in flying myself down to Dreamhack. All the people I played online and beat about 50% of the time and made connections with, I lost to every single time. There's many like me, top tier players but…

I did the same with Counter-Strike what seems like a lifetime ago. I feel the world was a lot different back then. My team was the first team to have a sponsorship by Steelseries (they were a tiny company back then), and the numbers were super small. If I told any of the current top players how much we made back then with our sponsorships (which included Samsung and Intel as well), they would laugh.

These days, you have CS:GO players making 5 figures a month, supplementing that with another 5 figures by streaming, and genuinely living like rockstars. It gets better if you look at LoL, because their numbers are fairly larger too (about 2:1 still, even if CSGO is growing significantly).

The amount of work that has to go into getting yourself into a top team is insane these days. Lan houses have for the most part gone away, and finding people with the mentality required to create such a team is hard. Those who do it are certainly well compensated, because there's a ton of money in streaming and brands want to be involved. But there's a chasm between being extremely good and being on the teams you hear about. For the first, life certainly isn't as glamorous.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#36

Post by J_Darnley »

frik wrote: post #26

I wonder why real-time-strategy (RTS) is dead outside of the StarCraft 2 e-sport niche. RTS used to be the best selling game category around 2000.

EA happened. They bought and destroyed the various classic RTS series. Westwood and Command and Conquer, Bullfrog and Dungeon Keeper. Should I link you to this: https://i.imgur.com/QzSPDMY.png

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#37

Post by hkmurakami »

throwaway9324 wrote: post #14
pdpi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The plight lies with those who aren't among the top 1% in their already elite field who are subject to the same amount of physical and mental stress and grueling 12 hour practices while making welfare wages That's also no different from other pro sports.

It's plenty of different from other pro sports. The "pro" part largely means getting paid more than it takes to sustain the activity. With some exceptions like pro boxing which isn't exactly a poster boy for ethical practices.

Pro golfers in the minor league circuits are often in the red.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#38

Post by scotty79 »

louithethrid wrote: post #27
frik wrote: post #26

I wonder why real-time-strategy (RTS) is dead outside of the StarCraft 2 e-sport niche. RTS used to be the best selling game category around 2000.

Opening of the market- gaming was suddenly less important then a consumeable story. Everyone can consume a actionflick- not everyone can become a general and really keep a battlefield coordinated. The genre is also not so ideal to tell a story.

Yeah. Everything has to have a story and dialog nowadays. New X-COM was especially painful. I hate when they interrupt or bend good game mechanics with totally unnecessary Hollywood story.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#39

Post by frik »

xentronium wrote: post #29
frik wrote: post #26

I wonder why real-time-strategy (RTS) is dead outside of the StarCraft 2 e-sport niche. RTS used to be the best selling game category around 2000.

Maybe it's MOBAs catching up?

MOBA originated as a sub-genre of (A)RTS. There are also other sub-genres like MMO strategy games (e.g. Clash of Clans).

That said, I remember RTS as Triple-A genre with games like Age of Empires, Command & Conquer, Age of Mythology, Empire Earth, Dune, Star Craft, WarCraft, etc. A complete genre has been dead since 2006. RTS doesn't translate very well to consoles with their controller input device, though it would work fine on touch devices and on the evergreen PC/notebook.

Re: The real scars of Korean gaming

#40

Post by blumkvist »

__P wrote: post #33
rwallace wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest a footballer needing surgery is "too far". The purpose of sports is to provide a framework that motivates healthy exercise. Once it gets to the point where it's frequently causing harm rather than benefit to the participants, the purpose has been lost along with any reason society should consider the activity normal or tolerable.

... I'm pretty sure that is not the purpose of sports. The purpose from my perspective is: Advertising, Gambling, and entertainment. Since when has it been at all about exercise? Defensive Linesmen are hardly a "healthy exercise" motivation. Sports that have little to do with exercise: - Racing (Horse, car, hound) - Chess - MMA (While they are super fit, it isn't "healthy") - Boxing - Bowling - Sumo (nothing healthy…

I agree about the purpose of pro sports. Thinking otherwise is like believing in unicorns. I am astonished by how out of touch with reality some people are.

Most of the sports you listed require tremendous exercise though. Especially car racing. Fighting sports... don't know why you list them at all. Even chess requires a broad exercising regimen.

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