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Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

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Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#201

Post by unclebucknasty »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #196
noir-york wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think there's any meaningful sense in which anybody chose this society. I just showed you how: the vote. Just because its simple does not make it ridiculous.

"The vote" isn't of much help in a single-party election. Nor does "the vote" imply the underlying voting system meets a threshold of efficiency, that externalities do not undermine the efficacy of "the vote", or that many policies are even subject to "the vote" to begin with. This idiotic grade school idea of "democracy" as a warm and fuzzy godlike essence helps no one and only poisons discussions.

Democracy should be much warmer and fuzzier. The greatest impediment to this is the "externalities" that undermine it.

So, rather than attack the "grade school idea" of democracy, perhaps we should be considering why our execution has failed to live up to the ideal. Because, to the extent that we allowed it to happen, we've also done so by choice. You might even say democratic choice.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#202

Post by chris_wot »

sambeau wrote: post #75
peteretep wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because they’d been to the top of the mountain, and they > just knew in their heart they’d never get there again, > that it was never going to get — never going to be that > way ever again And Sheryl says: > I know I will never feel pure joy again. Those who have > said, “You will find a new normal, but it will never be > as good” comfort me more because they know and speak the > truth Is this attitude ... normal?…

I can confirm this. It has been 15 years since my son died. On a day-to-day basis there is a new normality in my life and the emotion surrounding his loss is locked tightly in a box. There is plenty of happiness and plenty of new happiness in my life. However, at all of the happiest moments in my life the box is opened and I am reminded that we are missing the one thing that would make this moment complete. This is w…

I cannot even imagine your pain. I have two small children, and if either of them were to die, I just don't know what I'd do.

Thank you for sharing this most terrible of experiences. I genuinely appreciate it.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#203

Post by vezzy-fnord »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #201
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The vote" isn't of much help in a single-party election. Nor does "the vote" imply the underlying voting system meets a threshold of efficiency, that externalities do not undermine the efficacy of "the vote", or that many policies are even subject to "the vote" to begin with. This idiotic grade school idea of "democracy" as a warm and fuzzy godlike essence helps no one and only poisons discussions.

Democracy should be much warmer and fuzzier. The greatest impediment to this is the "externalities" that undermine it. So, rather than attack the "grade school idea" of democracy, perhaps we should be considering why our execution has failed to live up to the ideal. Because, to the extent that we allowed it to happen, we've also done so by choice. You might even say democratic choice.

"By choice", a Hobson's choice, perhaps.

You're clearly so invested in this ideal that you even retroactively shoehorn acts against or apathetic to it in the same framework. This isn't worth discussing because the conception of democracy you're operating under is simplistic and incorrect.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#204

Post by chris_wot »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #193
jbattle wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

before that it was the threat of nuclear war, ecological collapse, and economic stagnation. before that it was the draft, violent racial injustice, and a nearly complete collapse of legitimacy of national leadership. Idealistic youts have always had reasons to be cynical. (and sadly typing up this list, I see how many of the reasons to be cynical remain powerful generation after generation)

Exactly my point! Cynicism is often well-warranted, especially if you actually have high moral ideas. What people ought to be scared of are the people who aren't cynical because they simply don't care.

You just described skepticism, not cynicism.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#205

Post by chris_wot »

alchemism wrote: post #181
Dewie3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 32 year old lecturing a (supposed) 20-something about life experience. I guess cynicism is becoming younger and younger.

There's a relevant old saying that comes to mind: "Don't Trust Anyone Over Thirty."

I'm 36 and I endorse this message.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#206

Post by unclebucknasty »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #108
unclebucknasty wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we should dispense with the admonitions about reducing our focus on "the game", work, etc. in order to focus on "what's truly important in life". Eating is important.

That's why more and more people are pushing towards things like basic income and achieving self-sustaining technology levels. Because when basic sustenance is free to everyone and required maintenance work is minimized, one is free to focus on "truly important things in life" and do meaningful work, instead of engaging in bullshit jobs and "games" to earn the bread for oneself and their family.

I agree with your comments, including your assertion that basic income is an implementation of this sentiment. But, we aren't nearly there yet, even while we as a society nearly unanimously espouse that people are more important than work, etc. This is part of what I find to be disingenuous.

And, many of those who argue against a BI would also agree with the notion that friends and family are more important than work.

In any case, the current state of affairs is that we must eat to work (and feed those we love). In this context, admonishing people to prioritize people over work is disingenuous nearly cruel.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#207

Post by Dewie3 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #184
bambax wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you; I didn't get the prayer at all. It seems to call for some «pre death» period when you're not dead yet but somehow not truly alive, and I sure don't want that. Anyway our own death is unimportant since we can't experience being dead. Death that matters is the death of others (dear ones). My payer would be: let me die any which way you want... but let me die first.

so rather than bearing the pain, you rather inflict one on closest ones? you realize there not much between (apart from everybody dying at once). you like an easy way out of things, don't you...

> so rather than bearing the pain, you rather inflict one on closest ones?

Yep. And I should try and allow them to do that for themselves.

> you like an easy way out of things, don't you...

I sure do.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#208

Post by Dewie3 »

mercer wrote: post #140
Dewie3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 32 year old lecturing a (supposed) 20-something about life experience. I guess cynicism is becoming younger and younger.

Could you explain what is cynical about his message, or undesirable (or so I gather from your post, incorrectly perhaps)?

Oh I don't know. Maybe the common dismissal here on HN of any positive outlook or belief in oneself as being the result of naivete and lack of life experience. That in time they will resign themselves to realize that they are as useless as the cynic sees himself and others.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#209

Post by jusben1369 »

GuiA wrote: post #3

Paul Buchheit wrote a wonderful post, after similar circumstances, that I often re-read: > On a more practical level, what matters most in our day-to-day lives is that we're good to ourselves and to each other. It's actually not possible to only do one or the other -- we must do both or neither, but that's a topic for another time. Sometimes, when I write about startups or other interests of mine, I worry that perhap…

"May Sheryl and her family be free of suffering."

Out of respect to Sheryl and making sure we learn from her experience I think it's important to post this part: "Real empathy is sometimes not insisting that it will be okay but acknowledging that it is not. When people say to me, “You and your children will find happiness again,” my heart tells me, Yes, I believe that, but I know I will never feel pure joy again. Those who have said, “You will find a new normal, but it will never be as good” comfort me more because they know and speak the truth."

Sheryl and her family will never be free of suffering.

Re: Today is the end of sheloshim for my beloved husband

#210

Post by unclebucknasty »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #203
unclebucknasty wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy should be much warmer and fuzzier. The greatest impediment to this is the "externalities" that undermine it. So, rather than attack the "grade school idea" of democracy, perhaps we should be considering why our execution has failed to live up to the ideal. Because, to the extent that we allowed it to happen, we've also done so by choice. You might even say democratic choice.

"By choice", a Hobson's choice, perhaps. You're clearly so invested in this ideal that you even retroactively shoehorn acts against or apathetic to it in the same framework. This isn't worth discussing because the conception of democracy you're operating under is simplistic and incorrect.

>a Hobson's choice, perhaps.

I agree that it's the current state. But, I don't believe that it must be this way by some natural law. Maybe that's where we depart.

>so invested in this ideal

I'm invested in the notion that somewhere between where we are now and the ideal state is possible, and that we'd be far better off reaching for it. What alternative are you proposing?

>retroactively shoehorn acts against or apathetic to it in the same framework

I don't know what you're trying to say here. If you're merely pointing out that there are people and even systems that work against the democratic ideal and that apathy among the populace does the same, then there's no revelation there. You're simply stating an endemic problem of which most semi-conscious people are aware. But, what's your conclusion?

>* the conception of democracy you're operating under is simplistic and incorrect*

It's more likely that your conception of my conception is simplistic and incorrect.

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