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Let Snowden Come Home

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271–280 of 311 posts

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#271
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is right what he did. Given how much dirt has been exposed do you really think there was another way to do this? What Snowden did is a prime example of civil disobedience: sometimes a country needs to be called out on what it's doing is wrong, no matter what the laws say. That said, whistleblowers are in for a rough time and usually get acknowledged for what they did when they're either too old or dead.

He painted himself into a corner, and that's on him. There are a myriad of other ways he could have done this, but his intent was clear to damage the government more so than expose government surveillance. Most of what he leaked has nothing to do with the government spying on its citizens. Most of the documents relate to how the US deals with its own international interests and how it protects those interests - right…

> All he did was weaken a country by his actions.

Ah, the irony of mimicking the villain's final moments in A Few Good Men. The villain claims to protect the country's high ideals, yet does so by flagrantly violating them, and in the process utters your line, almost verbatim.

> His documents only confirmed a lot of what people already suspected.

Then how could he have weakened the country? This is a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too argument.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#272
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like this one that one never answered: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow... ?

That one may be obsolete by now... Here is another: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/give-presidential-...

I find the wording more questionable in this one. Still signed, though.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#273

If Snowden isn't punished then it will effectively encourage others to harm powerful interests. So there is incentive to punish Snowden from those who decide whether he will be.

I agree. But hopefully we can provide a bigger incentive not to.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#274

Did he release secret US Army and Navy documents? Was he hired to secure them, but then stole them? Isn't this treason? Let him come back. If there is enough evidence against him, then he can stand trial. If he is innocent; then the government won't be able to prove a case against him.

> Isn't this treason? Treason requires actions directly aiding a wartime enemy. There's a reason the US has prosecuted (let alone convicted) less than 40 people for it, and there's a reason they passed the Espionage Act, which is what Snowden was charged under.

The constitution says of treason:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

This is the part you addressed. Perhaps this could be construed as "giving our enemies aid". The actual legislation adds more details. But the constitution continues:

"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Which, actually, may not be an evidentiary standard that could be met here, assuming Greenwald and Poitras don't testify.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#275

Every time I see reports about US surveillance, I'm amazed how so many people seem to think that the US government can spy on anyone they like as long as they're not Americans. Are non-Americans denied their basic human rights or what?

I find it disturbing as well. There's a particular strain of political thought in the US where bad things that happen to people don't count if they're not US citizens, for some reason.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#276
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't sold anything to Russia, the leaks are public throwaway shill. That's called whistle blowing and he exposed the wickedness and the corruption of your "adored" government. But Ignorance is bliss for some.

I'm sure a nice guy like Putin is only putting up Snowden in Russia out of the kindness of his heart.

No, Putin is doing it because it's politically advantageous and/or he enjoys sticking it to the US.

But Snowden is in Russia because the US kept him there while he was passing through (going so far as to force down the plane of the President of Bolivia on suspicion Snowden might be on board).

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#277

Every time I see reports about US surveillance, I'm amazed how so many people seem to think that the US government can spy on anyone they like as long as they're not Americans. Are non-Americans denied their basic human rights or what?

I'm pretty sure privacy is not considered a basic human right. For that matter, neither is freedom from water boarding, so YMMV.

Waterboarding definitely is, according to the American Convention on Human Rights, to which the US is a signatory: http://www.oas.org/dil/treaties_B-32_American_Convention_on_...

It's article 5.2, sandwiched in-between 'you have the right not to be murdered' and 'you have the right not to be enslaved'.

Article 11 is fairly wishy-washy, but it states that privacy is also considered a human right.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#278
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'd be significantly more likely to know Snowden's name than the vice president. I feel like he made a major impact on society that will be written about in history books for years to come. If you don't follow politics closely, the vice president is simply not relevant. The only way you'd know their name is by remembering it from the last presidential campaign, where the his and the president's names were e…

Given Joe Biden's long and fairly distinguished career in the Senate, I would think most adults should know who he is, at least in outline, and know that he's the Vice President. And I don't follow politics any more closely than I think any basically educated American should. But then, there's that "basically educated" thing, isn't it? Our aggressive willingness, as a society, to not know things about how it actually…

I consider myself relatively informed about politics and had never heard of him until he became Obama's running mate. Senators and Congressmen are relatively unknown outside of their state for the most part.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the legislation is missing whistleblower protection (a fundamental flaw) there is no way Snowden can make any arguments in a U.S. court, at least not until the legislation is fixed. Unconstitutional or not, the law is just broken. It's painfuly obvious, and I can't fathom why fixing it isn't a higher priority (for example, wouldn't politicians who want votes promise to work for such reform now, after the Snowde…

Are whistleblowers allowed to blow their whistle to anyone? US has several whistleblower protection laws[1], but it seems to me that if you want protection from the law, you should report to the correct instances first, and then escalate from there. From Wikipedia: > If the information that is being reported is classified, then the recipient must have a need-to-know and the recipient must hold a security clearance. 1…

The espionage act, dating from the world war (The one with trenches and horses, not that new one) has no explicit whistleblower protection. It just talks about leaking sensitive information to the enemy It mentions forts, telegraphs...

The whistleblower protection act of 1989 eplicitly excludes those who work for the armed forces or the intelligence community (!). So basically the laws are wired such that the NSA and the Army are free to do anything (illegal) without scrutiny so long as it is also secret.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#280
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Joe Biden's long and fairly distinguished career in the Senate, I would think most adults should know who he is, at least in outline, and know that he's the Vice President. And I don't follow politics any more closely than I think any basically educated American should. But then, there's that "basically educated" thing, isn't it? Our aggressive willingness, as a society, to not know things about how it actually…

I disagree completely. Knowing Joe Biden's name is nothing more than trivia for 99% of Americans and has little to do with knowing "how it actually works". I had to struggle to recall the name. The man is utterly unimportant to me, though I do hope he is eventually punished for the crimes of his administration.

If you don't recall the name of Joe Biden, I very much doubt you know what the administration has done in enough detail to judge whether they were crimes, or if he had any involvement in them.
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