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Let Snowden Come Home

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231–240 of 311 posts

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#231
post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

So he did something wrong (exposing 'legal' things) and did the world a favor.

The US has a brandished reputation. Snowden made it worse and could actually prove his cases.

As a German, Snowden is awesome. I wouldn't give a rat's ass about whether you consider it legal to spy on this country. You (the state) suck. We learned this once more, got proof, understand that the US of A is not friendly and cannot be considered socially compatible - the values don't line up.

Yeah - I don't think he should return to the States. I think we should fire a politician or two over here and pay him a pension for life. And _really_ limit our cooperation with that aggressive/invasive country.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#232
post #168
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. They would lie to get him home and if the government reneged on an agreement most Americans wouldn't really care so he would be doomed. I think political asylum in a Western European country would be his best option now. Hopefully Germany steps up and does this as I thought they were seriously considering doing so when his Russian visa was expiring but were pressure by the US not to help him.

The German government will not offer Snowden asylum, the US government would be too angry at them. Also, with several US military bases in Germany (well, at least one, I don't know the exact number), I am not sure I would come to Germany if I was Mr. Snowden, even if the German government begged him to seek asylum there.

You might be right about Germany, granting asylum would certainly impose high political cost that they may not want to bear. However, of all the other countries I'd think that Germany would be one that knows a thing or two about the dangers of the direction we are heading. Also, if they did this it might be just the message the US intelligence agencies need to realize they are out of control and check their course. I can't believe there aren't people within these agencies who are not comfortable with the direction they are going with mass surveillance. Snowden asylum would morally strengthen their opposition.

Finally, I don't think Snowden is safe in Russia so I hope he gets out soon.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people with security clearance shouldn't get to individually determine what is right by their own moral code.

that seems arbitrary and at odds with the modern considerations of superior orders

I don't see why it's arbitrary.

It's not at odds with the dismissal of the Nuremburg defense because it was a violation of the international law. I do have to admit that is sort of a cop out since international law at the time was more moral than real law.

Another huge distinction is that nobody was charged at Nuremburg for not exposing the crimes, they were charged with aiding them. If Snowden had a moral issue spying on people, he could quit.

Also at Nuremburg, we were just punishing the losers of a war.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#234
post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

Do you think we have seen any serious fallout from these legal leaks? Perhaps Snowden assumed that American operations would be able to recover fully when ethical. I imagine with technological advancements and the back and forth nature of espionage that many of these leaks were not huge blows. In many cases these are plays from a war that the adversary was well aware of already.

PPD-20 is interesting. Do you think we have the right to be aware of the scope of the "cyber war"? Bruce Schneier's conclusion on PPD-20:

"Yes, our military needs to invest in cyberwar capabilities, but we also need international rules of cyberwar, more transparency from our own government on what we are and are not doing, international cooperation between governments and viable cyberweapons treaties."[1]

Seems reasonable to me to assume Snowden's releasing of PPD-20 was to promote this effort. It's a tricky situation but perhaps his knowledge of America's advantage in that war meant that this was a safe release. I trust his judgement. He clearly has had to weigh the options between acting within a legal system and trying to improve it through illegal political action.

Is there evidence of serious fallout from a Snowden release yet? I'm honestly asking, my knowledge can be hit and miss as I primarily try to stay on top of Canada's involvement.

[1] http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/opinion/schneier-cyberwar-poli...

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#235
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what? "if they change the law so that it would be legal then it would be legal" is I think how laws work? oh you mean if material spontaneously appeared? yeah... good luck explaining that one

I'm confused by your response. I do not understand the point you are trying to communicate.

the law doesn't work the way you think it works

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#236
post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

"Illegal" and "wrong" are not in any way related. All spy agencies conduct activities which are clearly illegal under the laws of their target countries. But are these activities always "wrong?" Conversely, spy agencies may conduct activities which are legal under their own laws, but are morally wrong -- harassment of MLK, for example.

And "unambiguously legal" is overselling the point: PPD-20 includes offensive capabilities amounting to acts of war -- which would presumably be illegal absent congressional approval. China surveillance includes illegal surveillance of US nationals and well as mass surveillance, which is arguably inappropriate policy. Tempora is a program conducted by the UK -- arguably illegal as signatory to EU treaty. Spying on Germany is likely to support economic espionage, which would be illegal under WTO treaty, etc. Al Jezeera is a journalist organization, which provides a useful Arab propaganda counterpoint to US propaganda, and is not itself a sponsor or advocate of terrorism. The various spying methods exposed are executive overviews and lack sufficient technical detail for implementation, and are thus appropriate for public policy discussion.

The US state security apparatus is also not elected -- yet it clearly does control policy through overclassification and outright misrepresentation of its activities to congressional oversight.

Were Mr. Snowden's actions illegal? Yes, clearly, but that is a question of no meaningful value in this context, as most NSA activity is illegal somewhere, and some NSA and FBI activity is clearly illegal within the US.

Were these actions wrong? That remains to be seen.

Even if they were wrong, is there a net moral benefit which could excuse the costs? That is a complicated question. Do the fruits of NSA, CIA and FBI espionage achieve their stated goals? Is US foreign policy successful? Does the US reliably achieve its military objectives?

So, rather than yet again repeating the mistakes made over the last 100 years -- with some exceptions, an otherwise disgraceful litany of paranoia and short-sighted pragmatism -- perhaps it is a good time to reexamine politically whether foreign policy as practiced by the US is appropriate and efficacious. The responsibility for this interminable chain of dismal failures must be accepted by the US government and US electorate as a whole. The status quo -- mindless subservience to nationalism, patriotism, and religion along with a generous dose of political amnesia -- is completely unjustified at this point.

This discussion cannot ever fully occur when the mechanisms informing that foreign policy are forever hidden from political debate by a veil of overclassification motivated by criminal activity.

Mr. Snowden has caused that debate to begin -- his stated intent. One could therefore reasonably conclude his actions are moral and justified as well as illegal under US law. US law is therefore the problem, not Mr. Snowden.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#237
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the stuff of nightmares. My nightmares, anyway. A fair and speedy trial in which you are not allowed to argue against the charges you face. It flies in the face of everything American and everything decent. There's a reason jury nullification is a thing - it's a check against the unbridled power and resources of the prosecution, and any laws that may be unjust by existing. Seriously, it's crazy to me when shi…

That seems a bit overblown. Nothing has been ruled inadmissible because Snowden hasn't made in court or filed any motions -- this is speculation. And "I had a good reason for committing the crime" is relevant to the case, but it's not evidence of innocence. There's a reason jury nullification is a thing, but there's also a reason the defense can't openly argue for it in court.

> There's a reason jury nullification is a thing, but there's also a reason the defense can't openly argue for it in court.

The reason being that if jurors knew they could just choose not to convict people who broke unjust laws, the conviction rate of the American justice system would be cut in half.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#238
post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

> Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc.

Tempora is exactly one of the programs that isn't "clearly legal", and is one of the things that most needed to be exposed.

As for spying on our allies and on foreign embassies: are you really so nationalistic that you aren't aware that this isn't legal? Or do you only care about US laws?

As for spying on the press, this is also very important to have exposed and stopped. Freedom of the press is fundamental to government by informed consent, and a press that is constantly under surveillance is not free.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. It's not because something is technically legal that it's moral. For instance, killing civilians with drones, torturing people, or recording the whole world's communications may be legal according to some twisted laws, but it doesn't make it right. At least voters should have a clear view of such issues, and it's not coming from the US government.

Voters pretty much do have a clear view that the nsa's job is to spy on foreign countries.

Voters should take a look into http://m.nsa.gov/about/mission/

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#240
post #11

Perhaps a minority opinion, but I believe the NSA vastly overstepped and that they need to be reined in (much further than what the USA Freedom Act contains)... but also that Snowden probably should face charges. Snowden is charged with "willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person," which -- I think sensibly -- is illegal even if the unauthorized person is a r…

> Snowden probably should face charges

I agree.

Let's put him on trial right after the trials for Keith Alexander and James Clapper wrap up. And while we're prosecuting him for it, we can draw up charges against half the Senate for violating the Logan Act.

He should face charges (and be acquitted or given a very light sentence due to mitigating circumstances). But, he should not be a victim of selective enforcement of the law.

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