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Let Snowden Come Home

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Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#151

Post by guelo »

tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

It's wrong to break into foreign computers and spy on people. If China did it to you would not think, "oh china, you rascally superpower". You would be scared shitless and would contact the FBI. It's state sponsored terrorism.

It's also, technically, an act of war.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#152

Post by onewaystreet »

yodsanklai wrote: post #139
tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

> The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. It's not because something is technically legal that it's moral. For instance, killing civilians with drones, torturing people, or recording the whole world's communications may be legal according to some twisted laws, but it doesn't make it right. At least voters should have a clear view of such issues, and it's not coming from the US government.

And what if voters say OK to these issues (which they basically have)?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#153

Post by dragonwriter »

josu wrote: post #145
tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

>legal foreign spying I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't sound right.

US law does not prohibit US intelligence services from spying on foreign countries.

Quite the opposite.

So, from a US perspective, NSA foreign intelligence gathering (specifically SIGINT gathering, its whole mandate) is, generally speaking, legal.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#154

Post by alexqgb »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #103
aerique wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is right what he did. Given how much dirt has been exposed do you really think there was another way to do this? What Snowden did is a prime example of civil disobedience: sometimes a country needs to be called out on what it's doing is wrong, no matter what the laws say. That said, whistleblowers are in for a rough time and usually get acknowledged for what they did when they're either too old or dead.

He painted himself into a corner, and that's on him. There are a myriad of other ways he could have done this, but his intent was clear to damage the government more so than expose government surveillance. Most of what he leaked has nothing to do with the government spying on its citizens. Most of the documents relate to how the US deals with its own international interests and how it protects those interests - right…

Other ways? Like what?

If you understand anything about what has actually happened, you'll know that Snowden provided (a) an exhaustive list of all the "other ways" that exist in theory and (b) point-by-point demonstration that none of them are real. But if you're aware of an avenue that has not already been widely and properly dismissed as useless then please, provide the details here.

And while you're at it, maybe you can explain how something can be both a genuine secret and common knowledge. Remember, that unproven suspicions are not the same as definite knowledge - not by a long shot. There's also a huge difference between knowing that something is technically possible and discovering that government officials have became lawless enough to actually do it.

Honestly, if we were to deal with crimes in the order they were committed, Snowden would be the last person going to trial.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#155

Post by irishcoffee »

josu wrote: post #145
tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

>legal foreign spying I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't sound right.

Why do you feel that way?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#156

Post by mr337 »

rfrey wrote: post #3

"As Snowden intended, the primary impact of the leaks was on political debate inside the United States." I think the primary impact has been the complete erosion of whatever goodwill the United States had among the citizenry (n.b. not the governments) of her allies. That obviously doesn't matter in the short term; but so many things don't matter in the short term.

Unfortunately I think it is justified.

Don't forget James Clapper lying to congress about not spying on US citizens. I also got a video of it, https://youtu.be/9LKzAsIMUx8

Last I heard he was selling a book, not from jail.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#157

Post by loopdoend »

rfrey wrote: post #3

"As Snowden intended, the primary impact of the leaks was on political debate inside the United States." I think the primary impact has been the complete erosion of whatever goodwill the United States had among the citizenry (n.b. not the governments) of her allies. That obviously doesn't matter in the short term; but so many things don't matter in the short term.

if only Canadian leadership were likewise disgusted.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#158

Post by bch »

onewaystreet wrote: post #152
yodsanklai wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. It's not because something is technically legal that it's moral. For instance, killing civilians with drones, torturing people, or recording the whole world's communications may be legal according to some twisted laws, but it doesn't make it right. At least voters should have a clear view of such issues, and it's not coming from the US government.

And what if voters say OK to these issues (which they basically have)?

If that's the case: no harm, no foul ?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#159

Post by DominikR »

onewaystreet wrote: post #152
yodsanklai wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. It's not because something is technically legal that it's moral. For instance, killing civilians with drones, torturing people, or recording the whole world's communications may be legal according to some twisted laws, but it doesn't make it right. At least voters should have a clear view of such issues, and it's not coming from the US government.

And what if voters say OK to these issues (which they basically have)?

Because they have limited choice. In an oligarchy the marketing money tends to go to candidates who support the status quo or even better - give the oligarchs even more power.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#160

Post by ThomPete »

tzs wrote: post #130

There was an interesting comment on Reddit pointing out some things often overlooked in these discussions [1]. People seem to forget that he leaked information on both illegal and legal foreign spying (which is what the NSA is supposed to be doing). The former is arguably whistleblowing, but the latter is not. Even Greenwald and Binney admit this. See the reddit comment for details and links to sources. Particularly…

The US themselves operate morally with the term collateral damage. This is just that.
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