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Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

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Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#11

> Myth 4: Renters throw cash away, at least owners build equity It's no myth, because you have to live somewhere. (Well, you could put your money elsewhere, and go live in a cardboard box under a bridge, but let's be realistic.) Owners are building equity with the money they would otherwise be completely throwing away on rent, and they got into that situation with just a little money down. (Depending on area), curren…

Disclaimer: I came to the comments first. I have not yet read the article.

From a purely mathematical perspective, it still depends on what your future plans are.

I purchased a property a couple of years ago, intending to live in it for a short period and then rent it out. I tracked all of the money that I've spent on the property, all of the money I've gained, and the general value (which I get from Zillow, although I know that's not necessarily accurate. If anything, though, the house is probably worth less than what Zillow says).

Note that this is a relatively new property (built in the 90s), which needed few improvements or fixes. So it's not like I've dumped thousands into renovations and so on, and it's not like a lot of expensive things broke with any kind of consistency. This is mortgage payments and basic home maintenance expenses I've tracked.

If I had sold the property within the first 1.5 years I'd still be out several thousand dollars despite the property's value increasing a little bit (I forget the exact number -- somewhere around $5k to $10k lost). I've only recently reached the break-even point, where if I sell now I'll have made money overall, and that's primarily because I found a tenant and have been making a profit on it.

The problems are:

1) The mistake most people make is that they look only at initial valuation and the final value of the sale. They forget to include the interest paid over the life of the loan, as well as any home maintenance costs. These add up!

2) Home values are not likely to increase 100% in the short term. If you plan on living in that exact spot for 10+ years, then yes, owning your home is obviously the correct choice. If there's a chance you might move in 5 years or less (even within the same city, to a better place or whatever) then you're probably at least as well-off renting, if not better because you don't have to worry about paying two mortgages during the move and so on. Obviously there're other variables involved, though.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#12
Myth #1: Toronto condos have outperformed the stock market by a long shot

Isn't it disingenuous to include automatic dividend reinvestments in the price calculation for stocks but not include net income from rents reinvested into more condos?

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#13
post #7

> Myth 4: Renters throw cash away, at least owners build equity It's no myth, because you have to live somewhere. (Well, you could put your money elsewhere, and go live in a cardboard box under a bridge, but let's be realistic.) Owners are building equity with the money they would otherwise be completely throwing away on rent, and they got into that situation with just a little money down. (Depending on area), curren…

> (Depending on area), current rents are in about the same ballpark as payments on a new mortgate, Not in Toronto, which is like the whole point > 1) mortgage payments stay approximately the same over the life of the mortgage, whereas rents just go up and up Condo fees go up and up

>> (Depending on area), current rents are in about the same ballpark as payments on a new mortgate,

> Not in Toronto, which is like the whole point

Then what is the rent/mortgage situation in Toronto? That was never discussed in the article. In my area rent is 2-3x higher than a mortgage, all I know about Toronto is that property values are high.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#14

> Myth 4: Renters throw cash away, at least owners build equity It's no myth, because you have to live somewhere. (Well, you could put your money elsewhere, and go live in a cardboard box under a bridge, but let's be realistic.) Owners are building equity with the money they would otherwise be completely throwing away on rent, and they got into that situation with just a little money down. (Depending on area), curren…

But that's the myth. The delta between the total costs of renting and the total cost of ownership is wide enough that you can invest it in something that has much better returns than a condo. Even owning 50% of your mortgage payment gets thrown away at interest, plus your maintenance fees, taxes and the whole bit are also lost to the sands of time.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#15

> Myth 4: Renters throw cash away, at least owners build equity It's no myth, because you have to live somewhere. (Well, you could put your money elsewhere, and go live in a cardboard box under a bridge, but let's be realistic.) Owners are building equity with the money they would otherwise be completely throwing away on rent, and they got into that situation with just a little money down. (Depending on area), curren…

Not always. Sometimes renting might be a better deal than buying.

There are several factors which need to be taken into account, such as mortgage interest payments, opportunity cost of downpayment, property tax, tax deductions, property appreciation, etc. Khan Academy has an interesting video on this topic: https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-fi...

PS: Sure, if your property appreciates by a lot you'll make a large return. But what if it deprecates? People being overly optimistic about property appreciations were part of the reason/most affected by the housing bubble.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#16

> Myth 4: Renters throw cash away, at least owners build equity It's no myth, because you have to live somewhere. (Well, you could put your money elsewhere, and go live in a cardboard box under a bridge, but let's be realistic.) Owners are building equity with the money they would otherwise be completely throwing away on rent, and they got into that situation with just a little money down. (Depending on area), curren…

Interest + Condo Fees + Home Repairs + Property Taxes + Property Transfer Taxes + Realtor Commissions are throwing cash away every bit as much as Rent.

Mortgage payments are likely to go up the same way that rent does, or even more so. Interest reflects inflationary costs, so the same upwards pressures on rents would result in higher interest rates. Except with interest rates at record lows, just a small increase in interest can wipe out an owner's equity while a small increase in rent (which is also controlled in many markets) isn't going to impact a renter nearly as much. Also, rent generally reflects incomes more specifically than inflation in general, and incomes have been increasing at a much slower rate than inflation for decades.

Debt leveraging is debt leveraging. Doing it on housing isn't automagically safer than doing it on financial investments. Yes, variance on an individual stock can be higher than real estate (also depends on the particular stock), but a sufficiently diversified portfolio can reduce the variance to be in line with real estate or to possibly be even more risk adverse. Not sure why people think debt leveraging is automagically safer with housing; it simply is not.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#17

Neither. I had to do it all over again, I would buy a detached house in the middle of boondocks ( like Mississauga, Brampton , Vaughn ,Markham , Richmond hill etc. ) . The supply of detached houses is limited whereas condos in Toronto are growing like weed. The detached houses have grown more in value and they are not encumbered with maintenance fees.

Detached houses could end up costing far more in maintenance. From experience.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#18
I take issue with the assumptions of the second chart. If we allow the author to assume 6-8% growth in the stock market over the 25 year period shown in chart two, surely assuming 0 change in value of one's condo over the same period is nonsense.

Perhaps, I might allow for 0 change in "real" prices, but since the author is not making adjustments for inflation in his calculations, his assumptions suggest Toronto condos will be worth 40% less in inflation adjusted dollars 25 years from now.

While this is one possible future, it seems incredibly unlikely given the optimistic outlook for his equities growth.

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Depending on area), current rents are in about the same ballpark as payments on a new mortgate, Not in Toronto, which is like the whole point > 1) mortgage payments stay approximately the same over the life of the mortgage, whereas rents just go up and up Condo fees go up and up

>> (Depending on area), current rents are in about the same ballpark as payments on a new mortgate, > Not in Toronto, which is like the whole point Then what is the rent/mortgage situation in Toronto? That was never discussed in the article. In my area rent is 2-3x higher than a mortgage, all I know about Toronto is that property values are high.

The early-90s harbourfront towers by Bay and Queens Quay rent studios/1bds for $1500-1600 incl utilities or buy for $400-500k + maint fees $500-700/month + tax + util

Re: Toronto Condos: Should you rent or buy?

#20
The assumptions made by the author are ridiculous, namely: - In the 10-year comparison, rents paid are not factored in at all. - In the forward-looking comparison, condo prices are assumed to be flat, mortgage rates go up (why? can't they be locked in now?), while equity prices go up 6-8% per year - Taxes are not factored in at all - capital gains on a primary residence are tax-free, while investment gains will be taxable (eventually, even if buy-and-hold) - Mortgages allow an effective leveraged investment on home equity, so your gains (and losses!) on home values are magnified

It's a worthwhile debate, and there are merits on both sides, but such blatant bias has to be pointed out.

Also: in the US, unlike Canada, there are tax benefits for a mortgage...

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