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Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

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Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#251
post #218

Apple collects tons of user data, and I'm sure they use some of it to provide machine-learning backed services, and I'm sure they'll come out with much nicer products to compete with Google in the future, also enhanced by machine learning techniques. The difference that Tim Cook wants you to believe in is that Apple doesn't directly make money from your data, they just use it to improve their product; alternatively,…

> "There's only one way to be safe. And that's to collect only minimal amounts of data for minimal apps." No. The only way to be really safe is to go live in a cave, not to have any friends and never go anywhere near any tech ever again. I'm sure you can tell that I don't consider that to be much of an option. It's unhelpful to label 'data collection' as the source of the problem as 'collection' happens everywhere in…

Or researching fast fully homomorphic encryption so they can one day be able to mine data while preserving strong user privacy.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#252
post #218

Apple collects tons of user data, and I'm sure they use some of it to provide machine-learning backed services, and I'm sure they'll come out with much nicer products to compete with Google in the future, also enhanced by machine learning techniques. The difference that Tim Cook wants you to believe in is that Apple doesn't directly make money from your data, they just use it to improve their product; alternatively,…

> "There's only one way to be safe. And that's to collect only minimal amounts of data for minimal apps." No. The only way to be really safe is to go live in a cave, not to have any friends and never go anywhere near any tech ever again. I'm sure you can tell that I don't consider that to be much of an option. It's unhelpful to label 'data collection' as the source of the problem as 'collection' happens everywhere in…

My thoughts are basically:

+ "Run your own infrastructure" is currently a pipe dream for what is 99.9% of people.

+ Companies selling data when they go bankrupt or M&As changing the nature of what they do with the collection happens regularly.

+ Discussing ownership is fairly simple as well, "Does the company already have your data?"

+ Any business not based around profiling has a additional options to make more money by selling their (your) data.

Why isnt excess data collection a problem? Is it because its very very hard to solve and if we pass laws bad actors will continue to flaunt them? Is it because we are past the point of no return?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#253

At the moment, this thread seems more like a YouTube comment section than a HN one. Though it's not exactly surprising given that Tim Cook's speech is obviously aimed at Google/FB. Let's start with the facts. Apple makes its major money in hardware. Google makes its major money in search. Obviously, iOS has to be able to compete with Android in order for iPhones to sell well. Google offers services like Google Now an…

Doesn't the bulk of Google's money come from advertising, rather than search?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#254
post #218

Apple collects tons of user data, and I'm sure they use some of it to provide machine-learning backed services, and I'm sure they'll come out with much nicer products to compete with Google in the future, also enhanced by machine learning techniques. The difference that Tim Cook wants you to believe in is that Apple doesn't directly make money from your data, they just use it to improve their product; alternatively,…

> "There's only one way to be safe. And that's to collect only minimal amounts of data for minimal apps." No. The only way to be really safe is to go live in a cave, not to have any friends and never go anywhere near any tech ever again. I'm sure you can tell that I don't consider that to be much of an option. It's unhelpful to label 'data collection' as the source of the problem as 'collection' happens everywhere in…

Thank you for posting a well-balanced summary of the situation.

I think the biggest difficulty with balancing privacy concerns against other factors -- or even encouraging debate about and awareness of the issues among non-technical friends and family -- is that an item of data is itself neutral. It is how that data is used or combined with other data that may or may not be in any given party's interests.

Sometimes the exact same technology or data could be used for very good purposes, useful and generally harmless purposes, or hostile purposes, depending on the context. For example, consider automated number plate tracking of motor vehicles. If your child has been kidnapped and a witness caught the plate of the kidnapper's vehicle, you're going to appreciate the police being able to find and intercept that vehicle as quickly as possible. If you're an urban planner responsible for keeping transport infrastructure as efficient as possible in the face of a rising population, an aggregated data set showing how real travellers want to move around your city could be very useful, helping you make decisions that improve the system for everyone. If you're that same urban planner but on the side you're working with a load of jewel thieves and abusing your access to historical movement records to figure out when specific wealthy residents are usually away from their homes so the thieves can break in and then abusing your access to real time tracking to confirm that the residents really are out or warn if they come home early, that's not such a happy ending for the data subject. Analogous issues arise with many kinds of personal data, including more sensitive areas like financial or health data.

In the modern world, with vast databases and powerful data analysis tools and effectively instant communications and effectively unlimited storage, sometimes seemingly innocuous data can also give away a lot more about you than you might want or need. Things like what you bought at a store, or who you were tagged with in photos on social media, or a recording of you walking across a street on CCTV, can be used to determine many apparently unrelated things about you with relatively high (but, significantly, not complete) reliability, again sometimes quite sensitive ones that you might very much prefer to keep to yourself. Consider the store loyalty programme that determines a girl is pregnant from her purchasing patterns long before her partner or parents know. What about the person outed as gay because they were tagged with a whole group of openly gay people on holiday? Oh, by the way, unlike their friends in the photos, the first person lives in a country where homosexuality is still frowned upon and being open about it has real consequences. Also, gait analysis said you looked nervous as you walked into the airport, but it couldn't tell whether you just read a news story about a plane going down or you have inside knowledge of a terrorist threat, so unfortunately you won't be flying today. Just wait until automated text analysis software reaches the point that it can effectively de-anonymise posts like this one, and suddenly a lot of people who thought posting under a pseudonym was going to hide their criticism/whistle-blowing/advocacy of some controversial subject realise they weren't as safe as they thought and those comments are now permanently recorded on some public web site.

We therefore need to move beyond black and white assessments like "data collection is dangerous" or "social media sharing is fun". What matters is not just what data is collected, but also who has access to that data, what they are allowed to use it for (including for how long it's stored, what else it can be combined with, and the like), and crucially, how these things can effectively be controlled or regulated to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules when data is data and once someone has it for one purpose it can readily be used for another.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#255
post #243
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A modern browser engine is millions of lines of highly optimised code long, and that corresponds to hundreds of millions of dollars of investment Currently Firefox is 12,000,000 LOC, so each line of code costs $25 per year? o_O If so, I am in the wrong business, given my main project is 300,000 lines of my own code. Now, I totally believe the costs are astronomical to run a web browser team and all the servers requ…

Mozilla do a lot of work besides Firefox. They have Thunderbird, Firefox OS, Rust, Servo, Bugzilla, etc etc. Brooks' estimates suggest that cost of development increases with the square of the length of the code. Likewise, a single developer should expect to achieve around 10 lines of code per day on an established codebase. This is about $45 per line of code at SV rates. Mozilla has over a thousand employees on its…

Mozilla clearly likes having all those projects, and is willing to make compromises to achieve that. Maybe you think the non-firefox work they do is valuable enough that you're ok with them auctioning off the default search engine setting (for example) to fund it.

Myself, I'll stick to Konqueror. You don't need a Mozilla-sized organization or Mozilla-scale funding to make a great (IMO better than firefox in many respects) open-source browser.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it'd be possible to make a good competitor to Now without tracking what someone does all around the web. That's sort of the point of it - the more it knows the better it works.

The most useful things I get from Now are travel info (mostly comes from email/calendar), sports scores (I have to set these up manually), flights details (again from email), deliveries (again email). So they can do quite a lot with just email and calendar access. If you use iCloud they already have these things and don't sell ads against them so you can get some of the functionality (imo the best parts) without trac…

They clearly couldn't do "new posts from sites you read" and "people who read the sites you read liked this article", which are very nice Now features. I suspect they'd struggle to do "recommended restaurants/museums/etc. near your current location" - Now seems to have figured out my restaurant price range (for example), and I can only assume that was through tracking.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#257
post #252
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "There's only one way to be safe. And that's to collect only minimal amounts of data for minimal apps." No. The only way to be really safe is to go live in a cave, not to have any friends and never go anywhere near any tech ever again. I'm sure you can tell that I don't consider that to be much of an option. It's unhelpful to label 'data collection' as the source of the problem as 'collection' happens everywhere in…

My thoughts are basically: + "Run your own infrastructure" is currently a pipe dream for what is 99.9% of people. + Companies selling data when they go bankrupt or M&As changing the nature of what they do with the collection happens regularly. + Discussing ownership is fairly simple as well, "Does the company already have your data?" + Any business not based around profiling has a additional options to make more mone…

> Is it because we are past the point of no return?

If you look at the computer history, we already had several cycles from single computer to timesharing to mainframes/supercomputers to PC to thin-clients/mobile to (?). There has always been a time when single powerful computers were in the majority and then there has been times when thin-clients with big server structures were the majority. The Internet supports also the model of more decentral computers and everyone could host their data on their own devices. It's currently just not the right time and there is no business model behind it, so no one push for that solution at the moment.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#258
post #243
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A modern browser engine is millions of lines of highly optimised code long, and that corresponds to hundreds of millions of dollars of investment Currently Firefox is 12,000,000 LOC, so each line of code costs $25 per year? o_O If so, I am in the wrong business, given my main project is 300,000 lines of my own code. Now, I totally believe the costs are astronomical to run a web browser team and all the servers requ…

Mozilla do a lot of work besides Firefox. They have Thunderbird, Firefox OS, Rust, Servo, Bugzilla, etc etc. Brooks' estimates suggest that cost of development increases with the square of the length of the code. Likewise, a single developer should expect to achieve around 10 lines of code per day on an established codebase. This is about $45 per line of code at SV rates. Mozilla has over a thousand employees on its…

I don't really mind the default search engine all that much, personally. Not gonna lie, I use Google anyway for web search because it's the best at what it does.

I do think it creates a conflict of interest when you're a privacy organization and by far your biggest customer is a company that makes all its money in the advertising business, but like you said, it's easy to turn off.

I'm a lot more creeped out by the newtab tiles. Again, I know you can turn it off, and I know it's not transmitting my search history off of my PC. I don't think that makes it okay, though. I don't want code on my PC that's designed to analyze my behavior to push products on me.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd be willing to pay some money for a light, configurable, sensible browser like Firefox 4 but with modern HTML5/CSS3/etc support. It'd have to run on FreeBSD and be open source, of course.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#259
post #91

> For years we’ve offered encryption services like iMessage and FaceTime because we believe the contents of your text messages and your video chats is none of our business. Sounds great, but take note that it's none of their business today and we know they can be compelled to spy on their users by NSLs. They control the key infrastructure with their closed-source software that runs on their closed-source hardware. If…

If anyone manages to make a messaging app that both has strong security and is user friendly and supports features users expect, they will become very rich. Seeing as no one has even proposed a solution in theory, it's most likely unsolvable. I'll bet if you can formulate it clearly enough, you can even prove it so. Look at say, Dark Mail. After all that hype, their design is "uh basically SMTP+TLS, or PGP if you're…

> If anyone manages to make a messaging app that both has strong security and is user friendly and supports features users expect, they will become very rich.

How so? Who's going to pay for it?

I reckon I could do it, you know. Use PGP for the backend (duh) but take some time off work, hire actual designers for the UI, make the identity verification step make sense for the user. But 98% of users don't care about security, and 98% of the remainder can't tell the difference between good and bad security.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#260
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Duck Duck go doesn't provide as good results, because it lacks the personalized data. Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework. Duck duck go gives me that as well as many links to the film. I think option 1 is more likely for Apple.

> Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us Unless Jamie Fox someday starts giving speeches about Django framework, this sounds like a pretty weak excuse to use a google-style (i.e. 'personalised') search engine. > I think option 1 is more likely for Apple. Google's business model is basically selling aggregated user data - not in the form of raw…

> That isn't a good thing.

Well, the search engine I'm using not being able to find what I'm looking for is also a not a good thing.

I quite like DuckDuckGo, but 10% of the time DuckDuckGo falters on a search and I have to put in a '!g'. Clearly, you can't be the absolute no. 1 search engine accross almost all queries without using some degree of personalisation.

As for a search bubble, Google and DuckDuckGo just take two highly opposing views. In reality, I'd love to be able to turn personalised search on and off at will, but neither DuckDuckGo or Google are going to let me do that any time soon.

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