Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev? • Hacker News Board

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#161

Post by timr » Tue, Jun 02, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #109

1. Startups have happiness potential for developer not only because of the monetary wealth but also because of the wealth of the challenges faced. Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted). The monetary wealth typically comes from stock options. Stock options are a promise that you can bu…

"Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted)."

Ehhh. I jumped from research to the startup world, so maybe I have a high bar, but most startups are doing pretty boring, predictable variations on bog-standard systems work. You see this in the way that these "exciting" companies keep re-inventing the same wheels in different languages. How many javascript frameworks are there, again? How many different ways have people found to "replace" relational databases?

If you're right out of school, everything is challenging. Give it a few years. Eventually, it becomes downright boring to watch people needlessly re-solve problems that were solved in the late 1960s because they don't know history, and/or don't want to learn some boring old technology that their older brother used last week.

If you want interesting problems, go into research. If you want to do interesting problems and get paid, go to companies that are large enough to have the resources to fund things that aren't directly on the critical path to profit. Startups are a really bad place to go if you want tricky puzzles.

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#162

Post by crimsonalucard » Tue, Jun 02, 2015, 9:28 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #150

crimsonalucard wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "club" doesn't negotiate FOR you. It negotiates WITH you. You can still negotiate for higher if you think you can get it. All the union says is, no programmer gets paid less the 200k. You want to negotiate to 300k because you think you're that good? Be my guest. A corporation is a group of organized individuals negotiating against you. A union puts you on equal ground. That's it. If a union doesn't work this way,…

Lets not pretend unions don't totally change the hiring landscape. Easy to say "be my guest" but we both know the corporation will not deal at all, after they've dealt with the union.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659718

short answer: It depends on the union. It does happen in this country.

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#163

Post by crimsonalucard » Tue, Jun 02, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #153

crimsonalucard wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These days I reside in a country which has unions everywhere - including in engineering disciplines. And everyone who wants to increase their salary runs away from union and unionized workplaces as far away and as quickly away as possible. Makes perfect sense. Unions negotiate lower salaries for everyone. sarcasm >It CAN happen? Why hasn't it, except for guilds (which you rightfully group with business owners)? I ca…

I see. You're arguing that some theoretical, immaculate, incorruptible organization that represents employees selflessly (with no regards to the negotiator's own status, for example) would be better than what we have now. Well, yes. But there's no such thing, and the likelihood of one forming is probably comparable to the same person being struck by lightning 20 times over 20 countries over 20 years. > Makes perfect…

> But there's no such thing, and the likelihood of one forming is probably comparable to the same person being struck by lightning 20 times over 20 countries over 20 years.

So you agree, but you think this is an ideal not worth fighting for because the probability of success is way to low. I can't argue with that since that's an opinion.

From my perspective though, we have a better chance making these "ideal" unions happen then we have of stopping the polar ice caps from completely melting. Higher pay is something we all want. And by "all" I mean the 99%. If 99% of people can't fight for something they want then we can't do anything.

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#164

Post by thebiglebrewski » Tue, Jun 02, 2015, 10:55 PM UTC

hamburglar wrote: post #54

I think the best approach is to stop believing the hype that you went into a vocation that'll net you obscene wealth and instead thank your lucky stars at having entered a field that you (hopefully) enjoy and which also happens to pay a damn good salary. From that point: hard work and perseverance will let you save a pretty respectable retirement fund. And the work isn't even that hard. I'm sorry to be the grumpy old…

More importantly, can a dog play basketball?

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#165

Post by PopeOfNope » Tue, Jun 02, 2015, 11:25 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #161

zamalek wrote: post #109

1. Startups have happiness potential for developer not only because of the monetary wealth but also because of the wealth of the challenges faced. Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted). The monetary wealth typically comes from stock options. Stock options are a promise that you can bu…

"Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges (as you've noted)." Ehhh. I jumped from research to the startup world, so maybe I have a high bar, but most startups are doing pretty boring, predictable variations on bog-standard systems work. You see this in the way that these "exciting" companies keep re-inven…

Why did you jump from research to the startup world?

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#166

Post by soulbadguy » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 1:44 AM UTC

A lot of good answers, and lot of good advices. But it seems there is a lot of assumptions on my motivations and personal view on moneys.While i think that those aren't strictly necessary to answer the question, i guess i am asking a personal question so it's only fair if people some assumptions. So in no particular order , i am sharing my perspective on some the recurring themes :

1 - Why do i want money (or why do i want a lot if it :)) : I am not interested in a luxurious or grandiose life style. For me money is to buy freedom and safety booth for me and the peole i care about. I want myself and them to be able to afford the best of the health care systems, to be able to focus on exactly what we do, etc...etc...

2 - How much is "significant wealth" 10M+

3 - Money shouldn't be the focus, the craft is: I think they both should be. I don't think getting wealthy should be though as a direct consequences of great work. Great work might be correlated or even necessary to building wealth but i don't the former always implies the latter. To get wealth i believe i will have to learn how, much in the same wayi had to learn to be a software dev.

4 - There is no quick fix. stop looking for it.

I am not looking for a quick fix. I am willing to put the hours (hell i am looking forward to it). But i also want to capture and leverage some of the value i will be creating (in a way that's is both legal and ecological)

So again a lot of great idea i didn't though of and i am already reading on all those venues. The idea i am particular interested is consulting : Is there a demand out there for consulting to startup say 30/week for 6 month for some equity in the company ?

Any body in the fanancial market want to share his experience ?

Again thanks for all the great answers

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#167

Post by chrisbennet » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 1:52 AM UTC

I'm not trying to be flippant, but have you considered finding something you like enough that you don't look forward to retiring?

I get paid (well) to do stuff I love so it is possible and possibly easier than becoming wealthy. I think loving your "work" will put a lot more happiness "under the curve" than waiting until you retire to be happy - even if you retire early.

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#168

Post by wingerlang » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 3:21 AM UTC

hebdo wrote: post #156

wingerlang wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean over a longer period, transfer this responsibility to someone else.

And then do what? Isn't this the problem of non-decreasing expectations? Once you learn how to fly, you see yourself as a sucker every time you try to ordinarily walk.

I don't know, but if you read the comment I replied to he says:

> If I'd known what I know now, I would have moved to a hut up a mountain a decade ago rather than going into business. Now I am responsible for the livelihood of dozens directly, thousands indirectly, and while I may have made myself a very comfortable gilded cage, it is a cage, and the cost of my wealth has been my freedom.

Doesn't sound like continuing is what he wants.

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#169

Post by Schwolop » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 3:52 AM UTC

heyalexej wrote: post #82

ryandrake wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Investing/saving $5K a month for 15 years with an expected rate of return of 7% and an expected inflation rate of 3% will bring you to a place where you end up with a balance of ~$1.5MM (or $1MM after inflation) to your name. Would that make you wealthy in your books? So, 15 years and you'll have almost enough to buy a _starter home_ in Palo Alto...

While true, Palo Alto might not be the center of the universe for... like 99.99999999999999999999% of human beings on this planet. The world is a huge playground. I am slow traveling since many many years and have a pretty awesome life in my books. In the end, that's all that matters. But this is what I optimize my life for and doesn't need to apply to anyone else. I don't dream of a luxurious home in Palo Alto. In e…

I think you took a few too many 9s there. That implies its the centre of the universe for 0.0000000000006 of a person.

/snark

Re: Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev?

#170

Post by beagle3 » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:25 AM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #163

beagle3 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. You're arguing that some theoretical, immaculate, incorruptible organization that represents employees selflessly (with no regards to the negotiator's own status, for example) would be better than what we have now. Well, yes. But there's no such thing, and the likelihood of one forming is probably comparable to the same person being struck by lightning 20 times over 20 countries over 20 years. > Makes perfect…

> But there's no such thing, and the likelihood of one forming is probably comparable to the same person being struck by lightning 20 times over 20 countries over 20 years. So you agree, but you think this is an ideal not worth fighting for because the probability of success is way to low. I can't argue with that since that's an opinion. From my perspective though, we have a better chance making these "ideal" unions…

No, I think it's an ideal in the style of "wouldn't it be nice if there was affordable healthcare / no crime (pick your pet peeve)". I mean, 99% of people want affordable healthcare / no crime, why can't we get to a state when there's affordable healthcare / no crime? (and the simple answer is the same: the existing power structure and enough pawns benefit from the existing situation as it is). I am saying that as someone living in a country with affordable care, btw - but the last 80 years of politics in the US indicate it will take a miracle or catastrophy for the US to do the right thing. I bet on the latter.

I think that without another very significant shift in the status quo (one I can't really anticipate, and it seems neither do you), it CANNOT work.

Take your idea ad absurdum - the world needs laptops - why don't all the [currently chinese] laptop manufacturers unionize and charge 5 times as much? I mean, we can definitely afford them, they provide most people with enough benefit to support that price. Exactly the same arguments apply, and similar reasons why it won't work. Programmers are not special snowflakes - they (we) are much closer to being a commodity.

Also, I think you are delusional in thinking all programmers deliver >$300k of value (which is needed for a $200k salary, all things considered - don't forget payroll taxes, healthcare, and other expenses, as well as minimal profit). Some only deliver $50k in value, and are well paid at the $80k they earn.