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The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

nytimes.com

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Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#81

Post by scarmig »

nostrebored wrote: post #78
scarmig wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if this is joking or not, but the fact that I can't tell is itself indicative. This is an example of just how toxic state- and corporate-sponsored trolling is to communities. Any given position will promote winners and losers, and any position anyone takes could, in theory, be the result of dishonest, arational, apersonal influencers who lack the desire or drive for a rational civil society. And I think it's…

Every opinion is potentially corrupted, especially when propaganda exists. The result isn't giving up on the Internet as a forum for discourse, it's giving up on discourse.

I like the results of having a civil society with rational discourse. Not simply that it's the result of the inalienable rights of thought and speech, but because society as a whole has massively benefited from it. The marketplace of ideas bubbles to the top the "best" ideas, but it is almost a requirement that its constituent agents at least recognize the value of reason, even if they themselves are flawed and biased implementations of reason.

It may be the case that it's impossible to save discourse, and the future is a world where brute force, power, and hierarchy drive which ideas dominate society. We'd be lesser for it, though, and I don't think we've explored many ideas for preventing that end result.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#82

Post by mike_hearn »

Canada wrote: post #51
mike_hearn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, fail. The Guardian comments sections are a trashbag of political censorship and general idiocy, but I see no evidence that they are being trolled by the Kremlin. A whole lot of people THINK they are, and the Guardian has levelled such accusations (without presenting evidence) but my own experience is that I am routinely accused of working for the Kremlin there, based on no evidence at all. Their view is simply "…

I've found the CBC comment moderators like that as well. The moderation policy is essentially, "Don't be vulgar or threatening" Yet comments that violate the policy but agree with CBC writers views are allowed while polite, ad-hominem free dissenting comments are removed. When there's too much dissent comments are simply closed.

Right. The Guardian has a rule that you're not allowed to insult the journalists. Unfortunately, suggesting that they're wrong, biased or maybe didn't do their homework is routinely considered to be insulting the journalists :(

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#83

Post by nostrebored »

scarmig wrote: post #81
nostrebored wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every opinion is potentially corrupted, especially when propaganda exists. The result isn't giving up on the Internet as a forum for discourse, it's giving up on discourse.

I like the results of having a civil society with rational discourse. Not simply that it's the result of the inalienable rights of thought and speech, but because society as a whole has massively benefited from it. The marketplace of ideas bubbles to the top the "best" ideas, but it is almost a requirement that its constituent agents at least recognize the value of reason, even if they themselves are flawed and biase…

I agree that a society with rational discourse is clearly the best option, and that this is an extremely difficult problem, notably because everyone likes to think that they're rational. We're always going to be subject to external inputs that change how we perceive reality and the world around us, and not always in a rational way. Some people recognize the value of reason, and make it their business to exploit it, while others recognize the value of reason but fail to acknowledge that the world they live in affects their views and perception of reality, and a third group recognizes the value of reason but sees their identity as immutable -- this is the most dangerous group, in my opinion, and a group I regret to say I've been a part of.

My point is only that our opinions are swayed and altered by propaganda, media, and the world around us in general. To say an opinion has been 'corrupted' is a murky concept to me, because I'm not sure how much of our opinions I believe are original, and what corruption actually means in this instance.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#86

Post by ptaipale »

astral303 wrote: post #26

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in Russia far far exceeds that of the Soviet regime, and the propaganda is by far worse (and worse than WWII Germany he says). Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in Soviet Russia and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Soviet Afghanistan conflict. He's been around the block and has seen f…

The astonishing thing about this propaganda machine is not that it is technically proficient. It is not in any way; it is technically crude. It's just a fairly direct political control by state of the TV and papers, and for on-line, just hiring people to spread propaganda on forums.

What is astonishing is its psychological effectiveness. It seems to encompass all levels of Russian society, especially the poorer people who are cut off from anything but the state TV, but also the middle classes. And the elite is wise to shut up and pretend to believe though they surely know what goes on. The conformity to social norms is so important: if you don't condemn the Kiev Nazis, you are a fascist yourself. Any disagreement will make even friends and family members turn against you, regardless of how good evidence you have for what you say.

I know Russians who live abroad and/or are net-connected and understand what goes on, but they are simply staying quiet, because they don't want to loose contact to their relatives and long-time friends. In a way, it's an example of "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil."

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#87

Post by grevutsky »

criley2 wrote: post #34
scarmig wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you'd agree with it or not, but I'd want to emphasize something: this behavior is not limited to foreign governments that have antithetical interests to the USA. Even publicly, the CIA recognizes that it has teams of employees working on social media to push people (particularly in the Middle East) to support positions more consistent with American interests. And it'd surely be pretty damn profitable…

Israel commands a small army of these as well, it's almost comical to see them appearing in social media and comment sections, but I have no doubt they're effective. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-s...

Comparing an army of mis-information trolls pushing lies to students who are paid to "combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel" by telling the truth is pretty silly, and intellectually dishonest. There is a wave of antisemitism resurfacing in Europe, as well as antisemitic calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. And there is nothing wrong or dishonest about a country fighting back against attempts to delegitimize its existence with information.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#88

Post by lgieron »

mike_hearn wrote: post #43
lgieron wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also spreading lies about Russians to non-Russians. See for example The Guardian online forums - these guys dominate conversations which have something do to with Putin's policies (say the Crimea situation etc).

Ugh, fail. The Guardian comments sections are a trashbag of political censorship and general idiocy, but I see no evidence that they are being trolled by the Kremlin. A whole lot of people THINK they are, and the Guardian has levelled such accusations (without presenting evidence) but my own experience is that I am routinely accused of working for the Kremlin there, based on no evidence at all. Their view is simply "…

> The Guardian comments sections are a trashbag of political censorship and general idiocy, but I see no evidence that they are being trolled by the Kremlin. A whole lot of people THINK they are, and the Guardian has levelled such accusations (without presenting evidence) but my own experience is that I am routinely accused of working for the Kremlin there, based on no evidence at all.

For me the strongest evidence (still non-conclusive obviously) is the fact that the users who are heavily pro-Putin, while clearly being a minority on the forums, almost always get ridiculous amounts of upvotes. For example, for a typical political comment on the forum, getting 50-100 upvotes is rare, while these pro-Putin posts routinely pull 200-500.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#89

Post by dontblameme »

astral303 wrote: post #26

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in Russia far far exceeds that of the Soviet regime, and the propaganda is by far worse (and worse than WWII Germany he says). Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in Soviet Russia and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Soviet Afghanistan conflict. He's been around the block and has seen f…

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in USA far far exceeds that of the WWII Germany he says.

Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in USA and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Vietnam war. He's been around the block and has seen firsthand the US propaganda in multiple countries.

If you think about the insidiousness of troll-style, FUD propaganda, it's way way more psychologically insidious than the overt US propaganda. You can't cut off access to facts and appear "fair"--instead you make people question the truth.

USA just raised a whole young generation that's a socially-backwards by a generation. Homophobic, racist, blame-the-russia feelings are rampant.

During the early days of the Ukranian conflict, I was surprised to hear a close relative in USA tell me how she has seen videos on Youtube of "blacks from Africa" killing innocent US youths in Nigeria.

This shit is real.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#90

Post by sireat »

None of this is surprising behaviour (insert obligatory Tu quoque argument about other countries).

What seems funny that the behaviour of various workers is eerily reminiscent of various characters in Pelevin's "Generation P" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_%22%D0%9F%22

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