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Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

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21–29 of 29 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#21
post #19

Actually, there's a competitive advantage to being dishonest if you're close to insolvency. If you admit that you only have 2 months of runway left, your employees will start shopping around. You'll lose your best employees first. If you keep it a secret, two things can happen: 1. You raise more money, problem solved! (or market conditions change) 2. In 2 months, you lay off everyone. Sucks to be them, but you got 2…

fsk, thanks for voicing what may be an "unpopular" opinion. for the sake of debate, let me provide rebuttal. in game theory terms, I think you're arguing that the founder's assume all parties will act only in their self interests, and if they disclose their financial difficulties, the result will be "Option A", as a result, they choose to go the "Option B" route, where the founder gets off "free" and the employees ge…

This isn't really a prisoner's dilemma scenario. Why does everyone try to match a scenario to Prisoner's Dilemma when it doesn't fit.

Consider the payoff matrix for the employee:

Employee finds a new job, old employer fails: +5

Employee finds a new job, old employer succeeds: +5

Employee stays, old employer fails: +0

Employee stays, old employer succeeds: +6 (+10?, +20?)

I wouldn't say finding a new job is equivalent to "defecting".

A better analogy is if the employer really put together an awesome team, and he hopes to work with them again in the future. In that case, honesty is better. But that's iterated game theory rather than a single game.

If you play Prisoner's Dilemma once with a complete stranger, you could argue that the Nash equilibrium is to defect. When you play with the same people over and over again, then defectors can be punished.

Unfortunately, the modern economy is more like a group of strangers playing with each other for one game. If you defect, you can always find someone else gullible to play with next time.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fsk, thanks for voicing what may be an "unpopular" opinion. for the sake of debate, let me provide rebuttal. in game theory terms, I think you're arguing that the founder's assume all parties will act only in their self interests, and if they disclose their financial difficulties, the result will be "Option A", as a result, they choose to go the "Option B" route, where the founder gets off "free" and the employees ge…

This isn't really a prisoner's dilemma scenario. Why does everyone try to match a scenario to Prisoner's Dilemma when it doesn't fit. Consider the payoff matrix for the employee: Employee finds a new job, old employer fails: +5 Employee finds a new job, old employer succeeds: +5 Employee stays, old employer fails: +0 Employee stays, old employer succeeds: +6 (+10?, +20?) I wouldn't say finding a new job is equivalent…

1. shouldn't you be looking at the founder's payoff matrix, since they're the decision maker (wrt to disclose or not to disclose)?

2. I think you focused on the employee payoff matrix to argue that they'll always pick to defect. but I would argue that humans have "emotions" and sometimes even loyalty. like i said, I personally would have stayed the course and sacrificed some of my "payoff matrix" but never got the chance.

disclaimer: i may have again butchered the theory of prisoner's dilemma, but i think you get my point so hopefully we can avoid arguing the technicalities of prisoner's dilemma.

Lastly, I would argue that in startups, this is a game you do want to play over and over. if you're only hiring expendable, replaceable employees, then you're probably playing the wrong game, with the disclaimer that I definitely don't have all the answers and reserve the right to be wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fsk, thanks for voicing what may be an "unpopular" opinion. for the sake of debate, let me provide rebuttal. in game theory terms, I think you're arguing that the founder's assume all parties will act only in their self interests, and if they disclose their financial difficulties, the result will be "Option A", as a result, they choose to go the "Option B" route, where the founder gets off "free" and the employees ge…

This isn't really a prisoner's dilemma scenario. Why does everyone try to match a scenario to Prisoner's Dilemma when it doesn't fit. Consider the payoff matrix for the employee: Employee finds a new job, old employer fails: +5 Employee finds a new job, old employer succeeds: +5 Employee stays, old employer fails: +0 Employee stays, old employer succeeds: +6 (+10?, +20?) I wouldn't say finding a new job is equivalent…

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Missing payroll is one of the few items that can pierce the corporate veil. Laying off employees is one thing; saying that the work they've done over the last two weeks will now be paid at minimum wage is quite another.

Actually, so long as you pay minimum wage before folding, there is virtually no chance a state or federal court would pierce the corporate veil and impose personal liability. This has been upheld in both California's supreme court and federal courts. FSLA for example is written broadly enough that a company officer may be considered an employer and personally liable for FLSA violations, but only liable to pay minimum…

But if you retroactively reduce someone's salary to minimum wage, don't they cease to be "exempt" employees, at which point they're retroactively entitled to overtime pay?

The Department of Labor says:

"Exempt computer employees may be paid at least $455 on a salary basis or on an hourly basis at a rate not less than $27.63 an hour."[1]

So the minimum salary to be exempt from overtime is a lot higher than the federal minimum wage.

[1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17g_salary....

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#25
"Last Friday I was told I wouldn't have a job on Monday."

I suspect that the same business owner who'd fire all their employees without notice would be hugely offended if one of their employees would walk into their office on Friday and announce they were quitting, and would be working somewhere else as of Monday.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, so long as you pay minimum wage before folding, there is virtually no chance a state or federal court would pierce the corporate veil and impose personal liability. This has been upheld in both California's supreme court and federal courts. FSLA for example is written broadly enough that a company officer may be considered an employer and personally liable for FLSA violations, but only liable to pay minimum…

But if you retroactively reduce someone's salary to minimum wage, don't they cease to be "exempt" employees, at which point they're retroactively entitled to overtime pay? The Department of Labor says: "Exempt computer employees may be paid at least $455 on a salary basis or on an hourly basis at a rate not less than $27.63 an hour." [1] So the minimum salary to be exempt from overtime is a lot higher than the federa…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#27
I agree with the thoughts others have written about fear of losing the best employees. In addition, I think a lot of managers keep things secret because they hope to avoid difficult conversations. Also, if there is one person who you really don't want to share something with for whatever reason, it's tough to let everyone else in. Those things don't excuse a lack of transparency, but I think they contribute.

Regardless, absent of some extenuating factor related to performance, no way should you have been given no notice and no severance. I'm sure they would have taken it poorly had you (when things were going well) have given them no notice.

Good luck getting back into the game.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#28
I've found that transparency comes with strength. When you have nothing to hide, it takes a lot of extra unnecessary effort to be opaque, so you might tend to lean towards openness.

When you're weak, you lean towards opaqueness and even deception (think Sun Tzu).

I think it's natural human behavior. So rather than asking "Why not be transparent?" I'd ask "Why align with a company that is opaque? Isn't that there way of saying they have something to hide?"

Re: Ask HN: Why not more transparency (says the guy who was just laid off)?

#29

I've found that transparency comes with strength. When you have nothing to hide, it takes a lot of extra unnecessary effort to be opaque, so you might tend to lean towards openness. When you're weak, you lean towards opaqueness and even deception (think Sun Tzu). I think it's natural human behavior. So rather than asking "Why not be transparent?" I'd ask "Why align with a company that is opaque? Isn't that there way…

good point malcolm. i definitely agree with your point on choosing who to align with -- this process has been a good learning experience on picking the company you keep.
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