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Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

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Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#21

Foreign reporters visiting Iran are usually in an echo chamber. They visit Tehran and a few other big cities. Live in best parts of those towns and hang out with people who are educated and pro western and quite exposed to other cultures. Iranian middle class (and specially the younger generation which are the majority) are pro western, quite progressive and modern. But they don't represent the whole population of Ir…

This is also a big issue with reporting in Turkey. Sadly, humanity has yet to figure out how to keep rural types form falling into theocracy, hate, and discrimination. Insular cultures are often terrible and progress, at lead in the modern world, comes almost excursively from the bourgeois. Communism, be it Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, CCP, N Korea, etc all suffer from this mistake. They think the bourgeois is the problem, when in reality its the non-bourgeois who are.

Theocracies have the same problem. The Ayatollah's and Erdogan's voting base are the non-bourgeois.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#22

>Remember, she tells me, most Iranians’ priority is economic wellbeing. Political freedom is the concern of a minority. The great tragedy of modern society.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/iran/inflation-cpi

Play with the graphs a bit here. The inflation rate peak at ~45% in summer 2013. Assuming 20% inflation rate, over just 5 years you lose ~60% of your buying power. Your $10 turns into ~$4. That is why they have to be concerned with economics, just eating and having a heater costs to much. Look at history, almost every revolution starts with a famine or food crisis. Why? Well, when the only thing you have to bet is your life (and that looses value quickly) then you will only make large bets, like toppling the kings.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#23
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't eat freedom.

Without freedom it's not up to you to decide whether you eat tomorrow or not. You can hope that they continue to feed you "in exchange" for your freedom. Until they have better idea.

This is usually why revolutions occur during times of famine. When they can't even feed your kids, then you have no choice but to seek 'radical' options.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#24

Foreign reporters visiting Iran are usually in an echo chamber. They visit Tehran and a few other big cities. Live in best parts of those towns and hang out with people who are educated and pro western and quite exposed to other cultures. Iranian middle class (and specially the younger generation which are the majority) are pro western, quite progressive and modern. But they don't represent the whole population of Ir…

I agree that the realities of life can be very different depending on geography and economic class. As a country of 80m people, Iran is much less homogeneous than say, Iceland. But this is not as inaccurate as you would assume. Because although Tehran and the other big cities (Tabriz, Mashad, Isfahan, Shiraz, etc.) can be much different from smaller towns or villages, they are very similar to each other and together represent a good first approximation when it comes to politics. With that being said, I am an Iranian, so if you like AMA.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#25

Foreign reporters visiting Iran are usually in an echo chamber. They visit Tehran and a few other big cities. Live in best parts of those towns and hang out with people who are educated and pro western and quite exposed to other cultures. Iranian middle class (and specially the younger generation which are the majority) are pro western, quite progressive and modern. But they don't represent the whole population of Ir…

I would not be surprised, emil. I am an American who spent a couple grand to visit Iran for two weeks. I am a wannabe Arabist (so it is fun to guess all shit on the walls) and even more wannabe Farsist (because it sounds hilarious, and more importantly because no one can keep it straight for me which side of the divide likes the word Persian in Persian, and Farsi, which is the A-rab name that stuck for the region). I went on to study Farsi in official courses abroad. I like to think I tried heard than the average douche touristo-journalist, but hard to tell.

In any event, as an American, I had a minder, as this is required for US toursits (you cannot simply walk around by yourself, you get caught by the police and it is a hassle). A cool dude, very educated finishing his doctorate work in German lit, and decided to pick up English and wing the tourism to have spending money. Unlike the kids in this article, he is like them in sentiment and style but from Nothern Iran (think Beverly Hills for the SV folks and Americans here), but he showed me the struggle their for kids like him was awful.

But there is a side of Iran that is not hipster and trendy like these dudes (I say this from the pictures, not the content of their opinions, but the opinions do it just the same for me). I will say the hipster kids are the ones I bonded with, and this is true of my time in Egypt, because their rebellion clued me into their personal politics, and that they were cynics like me. In Iran and Egypt, I saw much of the same. You as foreigner cling them to, and they to you, even though you hate the attraction. It says a lot about yourself, and them the same. These jouranlists amaze me when this goes unnoitced by them.

This to say, listen to this dude emil. Even Iran has hipsters. And it also has Republicans, just with cooler beards and weird congruences in politics with the American ones! I mean this as a joke, but is scary how minor the changes seem in the diverse insanity of human variation, to see in the Douglas Adams sense the universe is increasingly vast in the same shallow craziness.

Oh, and I recommend every American go there: you can see the receivng end of our foreign policy in all its splendor with the rabid terrorists!

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#26
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you contrast this 'echo chamber' perspective with a more realistic one? Is there a strong conservative movement among the young which is underrepresented in this article?

Yes, the vast majority of Iranian youth are quite poor and have no real prospects for gaining employment or wealth or moving up in the world except the one presented by the theocratic regime. For them the only prospect is to ingratiate themselves through the basij and other similar organizations so they can then gain employment with the government or with the many bonyads which overwhelmingly control the Iranian econ…

Agreeing with personal anecdote: the more people under 30 I met there, the more scary it was and relieving to me that I was never as stuck as they will have been their whole lives.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without freedom it's not up to you to decide whether you eat tomorrow or not. You can hope that they continue to feed you "in exchange" for your freedom. Until they have better idea.

This is usually why revolutions occur during times of famine. When they can't even feed your kids, then you have no choice but to seek 'radical' options.

It's a a sad truth that a single famine or economic depression can turn your whole life to risk-aversion and only valuing physical security.

You'll effectively ruin your life, next gen life, probably more. You survived but you died inside, like a zombie apocalypse.

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that did not happen without meddling from the west...

Sure but it's not the west that took hit. They can meddle with you and get away with it. Too bad. Go complain to your god. Go burn some flags. "You should not blame the west, you should become the west".

I truly love how you assume i am Iranian just because i brought that up...

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#29
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that did not happen without meddling from the west...

Iran has been isolationist and authoritarian forever, since the beginning of its history centuries ago. The persians held onto their obsession with religious leaders and sharia courts well after the vast majority of the middle east moved on. Even during Ottoman muslim rule where sharia and strictly religious leaders were semi-tolerated there was very little compromise in Iran. I'm not saying America was right, I'm ag…

What is your source?

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Without-Allah-Religious-External...

This "Iran has been this way" bullshit is the same nonsense I called out in a previous article about how Hezbollah is some Iranian cleric + Syrian Asad backdoor meeting became a movement BS.

Iran's history is more complex than that.

TL;DR Iran was not Shi'a, it became Shi'a, for political and politicized reasons, and was racheted up and down over the last few centuries and the authoritarian isolationism is a product of that now.

So maybe I am wrong, but what do you base this on?

(There are many books on this topic, not just this one, I just know even this one was translated to Arabic by a reputable publisher; more factual academic works exist and this is the modern Western analysis of Iran coming from when I was in school 5-10 years back in these BS Arab/regional courses, and Iran is lumped in.)

Re: Iran’s ‘Generation Normal’

#30

Foreign reporters visiting Iran are usually in an echo chamber. They visit Tehran and a few other big cities. Live in best parts of those towns and hang out with people who are educated and pro western and quite exposed to other cultures. Iranian middle class (and specially the younger generation which are the majority) are pro western, quite progressive and modern. But they don't represent the whole population of Ir…

I only have limited experience of Iran - travelled in a campervan from Turkish border to the Pakistani border with wife and daughter in 2010 for 6 weeks. Obviously our interactions were with English speaking (to some extent) Iranians (actually Kurds, Arabs or Persians, I don't think we met anyone who said they were "Iranian" ;-) ), so those were more outward looking to have learned English in the first place. Those who disproved of us would have kept clear.

But we found from all walks of life, from people in the cities, villages people were friendly, aware of the issues, had a sense of progressive thinking. I wouldn't say "pro western" as such on the whole, the higher middle / upper classes yes, but that is true for all countries. But definitely not anti-western and definitely a desire to live without western interference.

One question we were asked over and over again, "why do the west governments not like Iran", "we they say we are evil"..... it was hard to sum up politely "well your country stopped doing as it waws told for the "interests" of foreign governments and unfortunately for you, your country sits atop vast quantities of natural resources that were wanted..."

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