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Dear Paul

zedshaw.com

61–70 of 184 posts

Re: Dear Paul

#61

I've read HN almost every day for the last 7 years. In that seven years, I don't recall ever reading a post that said something particularly slanderous about Zed. I have seen post after post about his Learning XXX the hard way, and, in fact, I've even purchased at least one as a result. The one thing different about HN is that if you even slightly start to get overly negative on a post, you are downvoted into oblivio…

That all sounds great, but then why is he so upset? It's impossible to reconcile your picture with his.

So either (a) he's imagining things, or (b) you're painting over the cracks or can't see them, or (c) the real truth is somewhere inbetween.

Re: Dear Paul

#62
post #54

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

> Also, it's sort of odd that it was directed to pg, considering pg has made exactly one comment on HN in the last year. That's pretty much the point Zed was making, in an off-kilter way. Zed is all about real names, taking responsibility for things by putting your name on what you say, talking to people in real life to settle disputes because people aren't empathetic enough online, etc. The abusive comments on HN ne…

I think you missed this part:

"Apparently you will allow links to be posted repeatedly even after they’ve been voted down if it’s “gratuitously negative” of me, but take anything about one of your shitty startups down immediately."

(Emphasis mine)

Re: Dear Paul

#63
>In fact, I had job offers from a YC startup and a non-YC startup and am looking at the non-YC startup, just because of HN.

From the tone of this article, it sounds like YC startup would end up coming out ahead in this deal. This guy sounds pretty immature and emotionally unstable. I wouldn't want to work with someone like that.

Re: Dear Paul

#64
I worry about Zed. He's obviously a very bright guy, a very helpful guy, and a very productive guy. But, he also seems to be dealing with a lot of pain.

It's true that the Internet hate machine focuses on Zed a lot more often than many in his position (as he notes, he isn't powerful, he isn't wealthy, he is merely nerd famous), and I'm uncomfortable with that and don't support that. I like to see the hate machine directed exclusively at powerful, or at least evil, people. Someone like Zed, as we can see from his response, can be genuinely hurt by it. And, that's unfortunate. He doesn't deserve to experience this pain, regardless of how angry or upset his tone or approach can make some folks feel.

That said, Zed's not doing himself or anyone else any favors with public meltdowns like this (this is not the first, though it may be the worst). I don't believe HN is anywhere near the worst offender, with regard to personal attacks and similar being tolerated. In fact, I can't think of a site that is more pro-active about excising personal attacks. However, sometimes there is a bit of a blind spot when personal attacks are directed at someone "famous". I don't remember any of the negative posts Zed is talking about; and I've been using HN since very early, and far more regularly than is healthy. I don't know what he's talking about; what he describes is a massive, orchestrated effort to defame and insult Zed Shaw, with many participants.

I don't know how I could be so completely oblivious to something on such a scale. So, one of us is imagining the scale of the problem. It is either vanishingly small (compared to other sites with user content), as I see it, or it is the predominant tone of the site, as Zed sees it. It really can't be both. Since the reality of the site I see is so very different from the reality of the site Zed sees, I find it hard to be sympathetic to his plea for reform. I want to be sympathetic, and I don't want to deny Zed's lived experience. But, reading what he's written and making that fit into my own reality of HN just isn't working.

Finally, the tone of this rant is so far beyond acceptable that I'm even less inclined to sympathy or empathy. What he accuses HN, and pg, of doing (that I'm really finding hard to believe without references), he is actively doing in this rant. This is an attack on every HN user, in addition to pg. I'm not particularly bothered by it; I've been on the Internet a long time, and I don't take any of this shit personally. And, I imagine pg is not terribly bothered by it (and he can wipe any tears away with one of his hundreds of millions of dollars). But, Zed is definitely making it personal.

I have never wished Zed anything other than the best. But, this rant does make me think maybe both he and I would be happier if he took a break from the Internet for a while.

And, on that note, have I just completely missed seemingly years of sustained and intense Zed hatred on HN or is Zed imagining that it is far more pervasive than it really is?

Re: Dear Paul

#65

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

I agree with your points, but I'm not flagging it as I feel the resulting comments are actually quite good, and are pushing forwards the ongoing discussion about civility, assumption of good faith, etc.

Re: Dear Paul

#66

I've read HN almost every day for the last 7 years. In that seven years, I don't recall ever reading a post that said something particularly slanderous about Zed. I have seen post after post about his Learning XXX the hard way, and, in fact, I've even purchased at least one as a result. The one thing different about HN is that if you even slightly start to get overly negative on a post, you are downvoted into oblivio…

That all sounds great, but then why is he so upset? It's impossible to reconcile your picture with his. So either (a) he's imagining things, or (b) you're painting over the cracks or can't see them, or (c) the real truth is somewhere inbetween.

I imagine that it was prompted by this post [1] which was on the front page a couple of hours ago.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9636605

Re: Dear Paul

#67

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

You should only flag things that are against the guidelines. In that regard, I don't see anything about this particular post that is problematic. It has some bile, sure, but the man makes some excellent points that we would benefit a lot from openly discussing here. The best communities are those that self-reflect. They don't sweep the criticisms under the rug -- and I perceive your flagging as an attempt to do just…

I flagged this too for unnecessary drama, personal attacks, and off-target criticism - it is problematic because it encourages all the worst instincts of online forums - warring mobs taking binary positions, heated comments, and meta-debate over moderation.

It's likely to produce lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Re: Dear Paul

#68

Nothing anybody ever said about Zed did Zed as much damage as anything Zed himself said. I'm flagging this because I don't think that Zed is doing himself a favour with this post.

His language and metaphors diminish him to an extent that he evidently does not appreciate. It's an obsessive habit I guess he'll never drop. I think that's something to regret.

Re: Dear Paul

#69
post #59

> I hate abusive fucks And yet he's sitting there saying things like "[HN] is a place for men with tiny little mosquito penises". I once heard a piece of advise (by Caitlin Moran): you should never write angrily. You may be angry, but don't write angrily. People tend to react with the same emotions, if you come across angry then people will tend to respond with anger. The guy is obviously angry and upset, but its com…

Sounds like a recipe for the sterile PR speak we're surrounded by. If he's angry, why shouldn't he write angry?

And the preoccupation with swearing is just puritanical nonsense.

Re: Dear Paul

#70
post #19

Judging from his previous rants, Zed tends to overreact to things and blow out of proportion. Idiot commentors are everywhere, you don't just shutdown the community because of that. Other than that seems like a great guy.

Don't forget that celebrity can work both ways -- positive and negative. Just saying it is hard to tell if someone is overreacting without more information.
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