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Dear Paul

zedshaw.com

21–30 of 184 posts

Re: Dear Paul

#21
post #18

The core point of this (people are jerks, especially on HN) has been a recurring theme ever since the new mods have showed up on HN, trying to clean up our act. Things seem a lot better than a year ago, and I try extremely hard to assume good faith from people on the other side of the screen when replying to comments (helps my mood a lot). But this suffers from the same thing everything I read from Shaw: such strong…

It's very inconsistent. Replace "Paul Graham" by "John Doe", "Hacker News" by "Kernel driver" and "Zed Shaw" by "Linus Torvalds" and the commentary becomes "hihi oh my, that is some funnily crass imagery".

Language is just language. Crass language exaggerates a point, an emotion. If the underlying point is poor in the first place, the only thing swearing does is amplify how stupid the whole thing is.

Re: Dear Paul

#22
Good example of a Streisand effect.[1]

The red flag in this post is that it doesn't discuss concrete specifics, just claims "slander" and victimhood as if it's a given, then takes that all the way to "Paul Graham has created a great big slander and abuse platform."

As far as I can see this the "retraction" he's referring to: "Zed Shaw will not kill your company. For a very poor choice of words, I apologize sincerely. It's his ideas about security that kill." - @tqbf [2]

So, not really a retraction of "slander", just a clarification that the guy's ideas on security are terrible. Now I kind of want to see that video.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

[2] https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/7668904147

Re: Dear Paul

#23
post #10

I'm pretty sure I'm here for reasons other than to slander people and it's working out pretty well for me so far, so I don't think the claim that this is a place 'only' for slandering people really holds up. Drawing comparison between HN and some abortion protestors is not really a good way to make a point, either - that's just immature and insensitive. The whole rambling post seems rather crazy and the OP probably n…

Yeah... you'll find people being jerks everywhere. Most often, you'll find people being jerks without knowing they're being jerks. But if it happens to you , then the source is "the cesspool of the internet". I hope Zed knows he's being hyperbolic here, otherwise he's got another thing coming.

"..he's got another thing coming."

I am curious about what you think this means?

Re: Dear Paul

#25
post #17

What does Zed actually want to happen here? For HN moderators to remove comments critical of him or his work? This entire post and the attitude behind it seem really childish. I'm confused why anyone is voting it up.

TLDR; "I don't care what people on HN think about me. I'm concerned that other people are being treated the same was I was."

Although I haven't seen any of these supposed hate posts on HN recently (likely due to the new mods) but knowing the internet I can be certain that, from a historical standpoint, there is possibly credence to what he is saying.

Re: Dear Paul

#26
post #16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised if that news doesn't get flagged and killed(not by me I have no stakes in this). This an old a complicated story about people with ego being a jerks to one another especially in the Rails world. Rails used to be the new shiny stuff everybody wanted a piece of it because loads of $$$ so everybody started to be mean and tried to kill other's consultancy for greed. But the internet doesn't forget so…

> I’ll add one more thing to the people reading this: I mean business when I say I’ll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I’ll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally. Remember that I’ve studied enough martial arts to be deadly

[deleted]

Re: Dear Paul

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... you'll find people being jerks everywhere. Most often, you'll find people being jerks without knowing they're being jerks. But if it happens to you , then the source is "the cesspool of the internet". I hope Zed knows he's being hyperbolic here, otherwise he's got another thing coming.

"..he's got another thing coming." I am curious about what you think this means?

You got me curious. I looked it up. Definitely not what I thought. I'm not a native English speaker though, so that's my excuse :)

Re: Dear Paul

#28

I've read HN almost every day for the last 7 years. In that seven years, I don't recall ever reading a post that said something particularly slanderous about Zed. I have seen post after post about his Learning XXX the hard way, and, in fact, I've even purchased at least one as a result. The one thing different about HN is that if you even slightly start to get overly negative on a post, you are downvoted into oblivio…

>The one thing different about HN is that if you even slightly start to get overly negative on a post, you are downvoted into oblivion, and nobody sees what you've written.

Do you actually believe this?

Re: Dear Paul

#29
I guess sometimes you have to act with such a personality to prove a point. It gets to a point though where you can't tell if it's pure ego or a form of expression; similar to how I would view Kanye West.

Any jokes aside, I highly respect and am thankful for what Zed has contributed to tech, but I'm not seeing the point of this post. People are trolls on the Internet, it's a given. Anything with user generated content is hard to moderate, and gets harder to moderate with popularity.

The message behind the curtain, negativity, tone, and ego is good but probably a fantasy. This is simply the world we live in.

I actually don't see too much insults on HN. They are usually voted out on to the bottom, and if anything you do get an allergic, hyper-analytical observation on posts as comments that seem offensive but that's simply how some nerds are (I say this in both jest and pride). Through back and forth some people own up to their comments as mistakes and it's pleasant to see that maturation.

It's quite a marvelous thing to see what we have here. It's more of an example of human nature than anything, and the contrast between HN and Reddit is an interesting study of itself.

Is hacker news the problem or the way people choose to behave and communicate?

TL;DR Just be nice to people. Try not to let trolls get under your skin. Put your ego aside.

Re: Dear Paul

#30
Is HN a thing that can be abusive? This is a serious question. Don't say yes or no yet.

As far as I understand it: people are abusive. Places, or groups, can only allow for abuse, perhaps systematically, but cannot abuse anyone by themselves. On the other hand, places, or groups, can prevent abuse themselves. (I'll get to that in a moment.)

In this case, specific people choose to act badly toward Mr. Shaw, anonymously. I would think they would continue to do this in a different venue, if their ability to do it on HN were removed. (By stating this, I'm trying to short-circuit all the talk of whether HN is a place that incentivizes or disincentivizes such talk by banning people, etc. In the end, it doesn't seem to matter if such talk is discouraged on HN; the talk will still be generated somewhere else, and will percolate around the internet until it reaches Mr. Shaw all the same.)

On the other hand, HN could help Zed figure out who is anonymously slandering him. HN could put him in touch with these people. They would probably stop after even a plain small-talk conversation, due to having generated even a shred of empathy for the man.

But is this HN's responsibility? Maybe! Right now HN is just barely moderated at all, and even that's a step up from when it was pg's hobby that he had no time for.

HN would be a very different place if it was trying to behave in a "role model" fashion toward the tech community. Maybe you'd have to tie your (long-lived, active) Facebook/LinkedIn profile to your (thus forced-to-be-unique) account, which the mods would then see even though you'd then get a choice of pseudonym. Maybe "throwaway accounts" would only be a temporary privilege granted by asking a mod to make one for you in an exceptional circumstance, and only exist within one post-thread. Etc.

I can certainly see ways in which HN could be systematically less tolerant of abusive behavior—trying to stop it at the source, rather than just making it go somewhere else. But is this a fight YC wants to fight?

I could see this ending with HN being handed over to its own community under some foundation, because YC doesn't want to take responsibility for shepherding the tech community in the way I'm talking about. I could also see YC think that doing exactly what I said above would be a great PR move. What I can't see is HN being shut down: if it was, everyone here would just flock to another place (Lobste.rs?) and continue to be the same community.

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