Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Further, offering you hitman services is NOT entrapment. Nope, but creating a false circumstance of blackmail is. That's what we're talking about. But we've gone in circles. I think we both need to talk to other (knowledgeable) people. Thanks for the chat.
Well, I gave links to a lawyer's explanation. I everything you're saying is entrapment is listed under the 'entrapment myths' so I don't know what to say here.
Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
621–630 of 641 posts
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#622Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you seriously think people wouldn't OD on drugs if there were legal sources? People ruin their lives pretty well currently with highly addictive drugs, and I don't see how increasing supply would stop that from happening. You can be clever that sticks kill people all you want, but that's completely sidestepping why people are worried about drug legalization: many drugs have extremely well documented negative effec…
It's pretty obvious that drugs being illegal isn't stopping people from OD'ing, so I don't understand how this can be used as an argument against legalizing drugs.
If you actually want to convince people on the fence (GP's comment is clearly meant only for the audience of those already convinced), it's more important to actually use convincing arguments. "Sticks hurt people" convinces no one.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#623Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's break down a few of these myths. The whole guide is worth a read. The author says it's roughly the equivalent of what 1Ls go through. ===== Can the police give you the idea to do something bad? YES - http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=646 You're supposed to refuse. ===== Can the police commit crimes along with you? YES - http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=649 There are limits, though, to what sort of crimes, explained in t…
They should make a web comic university. I wonder if someone could pass the Bar Exam... None of these cover the scenario. They do not have to do with whether using coercion (let's say the leverage in the third example) counts as entrapment if done by the police. The answer is yes. You are continuing to try to use web comics to argue a strawman. They are interesting web comics, for sure. Whether it is okay or not to k…
Further, this is all 1L stuff (i.e. the basics). DRP's lawyers know all this stuff. And yet, as far as I can see, they didn't even try this argument. There's only one reason a lawyer doesn't raise an argument that would get their client off the hook: because it's bogus. (Raising bogus arguments in court is a bad idea... it wastes everyone's time and angers the judge, do it enough and you can get sanctioned.)
And they did cover the hitman issue--they most certainly did try to suppress the evidence that he hired a hitman (just not with arguments over entrapment). You can read more here:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391...
But not once did they say 'entrap'. You seem to be trying to argue that DPR wasn't predisposed to hiring hitmen before the cops got there, but that the cops convinced him that it was his only option.
I've covered why that doesn't cut it: the police CAN join your conspiracy, they CAN lie to you, they CAN give you the means (and the idea!) to commit the crime, and he DID have other options (he doesn't have to like them). Each of those cuts out elements of his defense, leaving nothing.
So the case you have to make is that the police overcame his resistance to hiring a hitman, but the chat logs given never show him saying "no, I don't want to do this" they show him as eager to make use of this "solution."
To establish a claim of entrapment, you have to show that he resisted the idea and that the police overcame this resistance. From there, courts may follow one of two approaches: deciding whether this defendant had been predisposed to commit the crime or whether this approach would have caused any law-abiding citizen to commit the crime.
I've been pointing to the latter approach, as I think it's more productive to take an objective approach than a subjective one. Were a law-abiding citizen in DPR's shoes, they would NOT have hired the hitman. A law-abiding citizen hit by this would have turned to the police for protection from the blackmail, not to a hitman.
The discussion of necessity and duress is relevant to whether he had "other options." Both of those are arguments that one does not have other real options. Because both of those unqestionably fail, he had other options.
To establish entrapment, you have to prove that he had no way out and that they used this to overcome resistance. In the example of actual entrapment, we have someone shown as refusing to commit a crime for money, then agreeing only because someone's life is at stake and the papers aren't really important.
Nowhere have you cited any of the chat logs with him showing resistance to hiring a hitman (this is required!). And then you have to show them overcoming this resistance.
Maybe if you can show the police telling him that police protection is worthless or shooting down his ideas for avoiding hiring a hitman you could get somewhere, but... no such evidence is on offer.
Rather, all of the evidence points to the fact that he was predisposed to commit this crime. From the legal brief cited above:
The next day, Ulbricht told another coconspirator, CC-2, about the theft. (Id.) Ulbricht expressed surprise that the Employee had stolen from him given that he had a copy of the Employee’s driver’s license. (Id. at 6-7.) Later in the conversation, Ulbricht and CC-2 discussed the possibility that the Employee was cooperating with law enforcement, and CC-2 remarked:
[A]s a side note, at what point in time do we decide that we’ve had enough of someone[’]s shit, and terminate them? Like, does impersonating a vendor to rip off a mid-level drug lord, using our rep and system; follows up by stealing from our vendors and clients and breeding fear and mis-trust, does that come close in your opinion. (Id. at 7.) Ulbricht responded, “terminate? execute?” and later stated, “I would have no problem wasting this guy.” (Id.) CC-2 responded that he could take care of it, and stated that he would have been surprised if Ulbricht “balked at taking the step, of bluntly, killing [the Employee] for fucking up just a wee bit too badly.” (Id.) Later that day, Ulbricht told CC-2 that he had solicited someone to track down the Employee. (Id.)So if you want to argue this, take facts cited from court papers (e.g. papers filed by DPR's lawyers), then fit those to the elements of entrapment. Show me from the chat logs or similar sources where he exhibited resistance to the idea, then show me how the police convinced him to give up that resistance.
Because that's how you establish entrapment.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#624Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW "addicted to cars" has results with headline in major news outlets - it's a common trope. In human geography terms it simply means that giving up cars is a supremely difficult thing for society to do - particularly in some Western areas that are designed around the idea that all people have cars available [cheaply]. This has enough similarity to addiction that people use "addicted" commonly like this - "I'm addi…
Would you say that you are addicted to shoes? I would find it harder to give up shoes as compared to cars. Disagree with your definition of addicted
>Disagree with your definition of addicted //
I made pains to show that "addicted" was being used metaphorically. I was describing common use not presenting an alternate definition. That said the roots of the word are in having an inclination towards something and it is still defined in some dictionaries as alternately relating towards habits rather than solely pertaining to psychological or physiological dependency.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#625Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#626Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Texas was the first thing to come to my mind From your source " the protection-of-property element of the deadly force law is “pretty unique to Texas.” ". If this type of law is pretty unique to Texas, let's look at the Texas law, instead of necessarily simplistic summaries. Here [1] is the actual Texas state law. The relevant section is 9.42. The law states that deadly force may only be used in the case you claim…
The point was the motivation of protecting money. Under the Texas law, the defender doesn't need to be defending life, only seeking to recover property. Most of what you've said isn't a counterargument to what I said. Willy nilly was never a claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#State-by-state_... Louisiana appears to allow lethal force just to prevent unlawful entry into a dwelling, place of business,…
Are you claiming they are? Note I simply asked:
> Please cite law statute or legal cases with links. Poorly researched news stories and opinions are much less useful.
Nothing you've posted allows Ulbricht to hire someone to kill Green, no matter how Ulbricht obtained the money to begins with. Until you cite a law by statute you think allows this, we're done.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#627Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point was the motivation of protecting money. Under the Texas law, the defender doesn't need to be defending life, only seeking to recover property. Most of what you've said isn't a counterargument to what I said. Willy nilly was never a claim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#State-by-state_... Louisiana appears to allow lethal force just to prevent unlawful entry into a dwelling, place of business,…
>Are 'dead or alive' bounties not legal? Are you claiming they are? Note I simply asked: > Please cite law statute or legal cases with links. Poorly researched news stories and opinions are much less useful. Nothing you've posted allows Ulbricht to hire someone to kill Green, no matter how Ulbricht obtained the money to begins with. Until you cite a law by statute you think allows this, we're done.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#628Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Are 'dead or alive' bounties not legal? Are you claiming they are? Note I simply asked: > Please cite law statute or legal cases with links. Poorly researched news stories and opinions are much less useful. Nothing you've posted allows Ulbricht to hire someone to kill Green, no matter how Ulbricht obtained the money to begins with. Until you cite a law by statute you think allows this, we're done.
So... you make up an assertion I'm supposed to back up? Nice.
Your assertion, not true as stated, and only party true except in very specific circumstances. You claim Texas; I show that's not true in such generality; you drop that line. I'll vote this one as "Not backed up."
> I'm pretty sure you could still post a reward, 'dead or alive'
Your assertion, not backed up. And wrong.
> I think it's legal to try to catch the robber yourself indefinitely, and defend yourself if threatened in the process.
Your assertion, not backed up. And wrong.
> Is it not legal to chase down the thief yourself?
Your assertion, not backed up. And wrong.
>Louisiana appears to allow lethal force just to prevent unlawful entry into a dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle.
And now just simply move your original goalposts from robbery, since your original claim about Texas was not the slam dunk you hoped.
>Are 'dead or alive' bounties not legal?
Your assertion, not backed up. Also wrong.
Do you see why I asked for you to provide statute, since all your unbacked assertions are just wrong?
>So... you make up an assertion I'm supposed to back up? Nice.
You make up assertions, are unable to support them when asked multiple times, and then try to blame me? Classic.
Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
#629Earlier quoted context omitted.
They should make a web comic university. I wonder if someone could pass the Bar Exam... None of these cover the scenario. They do not have to do with whether using coercion (let's say the leverage in the third example) counts as entrapment if done by the police. The answer is yes. You are continuing to try to use web comics to argue a strawman. They are interesting web comics, for sure. Whether it is okay or not to k…
I'm sorry you don't agree with me, but I can't help but point out that you've offered only your own opinions. You've not cited any law or description thereof, nor have you cited any of the court papers in this conversation. I've cited both and given sources for my reasoning. Further, this is all 1L stuff (i.e. the basics). DRP's lawyers know all this stuff. And yet, as far as I can see, they didn't even try this argu…
You sound like you're a very insistent and dogged debater.
It would be becoming of you to take your passion for argumentation and apply it to the arguments being made by the opposition. I'm certain that if you did this you would have more success.
I would reply point by point but as they say "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."
Thanks again for the discussion. Hope to see you continue to be verbose (but perhaps more charitable) in other threads around HN.