Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa • Hacker News Board

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#11

Post by historylesson » Sun, May 31, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

bruant wrote: post #10

I think the important thing to remember here - especially for gentrified 21st century software engineers - is that to fully own your guilt for slavery in the Americas, you must first ignore the history of slavery in Africa itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. There is a reason it was called the 'Slave Trade' for a reason - the locals were more than happy to sell their bretheren. That is probably the saddest point of it all.

Well, sadest is that slavery still exists in most of the world, and yet we seem to consider it a relic from the past.

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#12

Post by benbreen » Sun, May 31, 2015, 9:17 PM UTC

historylesson wrote: post #11

bruant wrote: post #10

I think the important thing to remember here - especially for gentrified 21st century software engineers - is that to fully own your guilt for slavery in the Americas, you must first ignore the history of slavery in Africa itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. Th…

No one who studies the Atlantic slave trade (or the Indian Ocean slave trade for that matter) is going to deny that slavery existed in various forms in pre-colonial Africa. But there's an enormous difference between pre-colonial slavery and the system that began to emerge under the Portuguese, Spanish, and English in the 16th century - both in terms of sheer numbers, and (in many cases) in terms of the severity of conditions for slaves. It's analogous to constantly pointing out that Roman iron forges created air pollution in the 2nd century CE whenever people talk about 20th century environmental issues. I don't disagree that the general public should be educated about the multi-sited nature of slavery of course; as an historian of this period I just wanted to point out that the people who actually study and teach this stuff are not trying to portray it as a solely European phenomenon. However it is inarguably the case that the early modern European empires were responsible for upgrading both the scale and severity of a pre-existing slave system.

Anyway, to add something substantive here, I figured I'd link to the Transatlantic Slave Trade Database, which is (from my point of view at least) one of the most significant achievements in historical scholarship in the last few decades:

http://www.slavevoyages.org/tast/index.faces

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#13

Post by aidos » Sun, May 31, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

historylesson wrote: post #11

bruant wrote: post #10

I think the important thing to remember here - especially for gentrified 21st century software engineers - is that to fully own your guilt for slavery in the Americas, you must first ignore the history of slavery in Africa itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. Th…

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the downvotes were related to the subject of the comment. More likely, they were to do with the way it (and the other comments on this thread by bruant) were presented.

It would have taken no effort to have phrased the idea in a way that invited others to discuss it and learn more about it. Instead it was an, evidently, unwelcome (and totally unjustified) stab at the people who might be reading.

benbreen's comment was far more interesting and made me want to learn more about the subject.

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#14

Post by mikeash » Sun, May 31, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

bruant wrote: post #10

I think the important thing to remember here - especially for gentrified 21st century software engineers - is that to fully own your guilt for slavery in the Americas, you must first ignore the history of slavery in Africa itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

I'm confused. Why do I need to ignore the history of slavery in Africa?

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#15

Post by webdevsblow » Sun, May 31, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

historylesson wrote: post #11

bruant wrote: post #10

I think the important thing to remember here - especially for gentrified 21st century software engineers - is that to fully own your guilt for slavery in the Americas, you must first ignore the history of slavery in Africa itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. Th…

Even your comment has gone grey. Open minds are left behind in the hivemind groupthink of HN, so even small correct observations get penalised.

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#16

Post by recibe » Sun, May 31, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

webdevsblow wrote: post #15

historylesson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. Th…

Even your comment has gone grey. Open minds are left behind in the hivemind groupthink of HN, so even small correct observations get penalised.

Ironic to see the wealthiest, most celebrated practitioners of logic so determined to ignore facts incompatible with their beliefs.

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#17

Post by recibe » Sun, May 31, 2015, 10:24 PM UTC

benbreen wrote: post #12

historylesson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rather sad you have been downvoted, but alas in these PC days, not surprising. You are of course right, the audience here, of all places, should seek further education, and whilst pointing out the horrors of slavery, should not take the simplified modernistic version of suited Westerners sailing over, grabbing a boat load of locals and sailing them back for work. It was and is far more complicated than that. Th…

No one who studies the Atlantic slave trade (or the Indian Ocean slave trade for that matter) is going to deny that slavery existed in various forms in pre-colonial Africa. But there's an enormous difference between pre-colonial slavery and the system that began to emerge under the Portuguese, Spanish, and English in the 16th century - both in terms of sheer numbers, and (in many cases) in terms of the severity of co…

That's hardly the case. The glaring issue here is that research funding is habitually allocated to keep this wound open - ostensibly in some demented attempt at black empowerment.

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#18

Post by shiven » Mon, Jun 01, 2015, 2:10 AM UTC

bruant wrote: post #5

taphangum wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't upvote enough. It's sad that more people aren't aware of this.

Absolutely. Free will and ability to differentiate right from wrong are way overrated.

And who decides what is right and what is wrong in each and every case?

Is their judgement never wrong? In what percent of cases is it wrong?

Have your ever been wrongly convicted of something? Would you think or say the same things if you were?

Re: Tortuous History Traced in Sunken Slave Ship Found Off South Africa

#19

Post by hobbyjogger » Mon, Jun 01, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #8

jMyles wrote: post #2

The middle passage is one of the most awful things anyone can say about humans. Another, sadly, is the current state of the US prison system. I'm always a bit amazed at how casually people talk about how "slavery ended," punctuated by the civil war, when in fact, the 13th amendment didn't end slavery at all, at least legally. > except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted The drug…

> I'm always a bit amazed at how casually people talk about how "slavery ended," punctuated by the civil war, when in fact, the 13th amendment didn't end slavery at all, at least legally. I always cringe when people talk about sweatshops being a thing of the past. Being held captive and working for $0.23/hour [0] may not be literal slavery, but it's at best a rounding error away[1]. And that's exactly the state of ma…

Look, I'm as critical of U.S. mass incarceration as anyone. And there are many problems--overcriminalization, mandatory minimums, rampant plea bargaining, prosecutorial misconduct, wrongful conviction. But despite all those problems, equating it with slavery--actual slavery as it was practiced in the U.S. through the Civil War--is senseless.

You are equating criminal incarceration (even unjust incarceration) with intentionally terrorizing innocent African villages, capturing their people and shipping them to another continent to live in chains.

It's a little like the tendency to call bad things, when they are bad enough, "genocide" or "holocaust" despite the very specific meanings of those words.