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What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

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Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#31

Post by InclinedPlane »

notaddicted wrote: post #9

Apple is a data point in one of the eternal HN debates: Ideas vs. Execution. The functional design of the iPhone was a surprise to no one, everyone wanted it, Apple delivered. There are many operating system, but OSX is still an asset to Apple. It may be the case that Apple has great ideas, but they certainly have great execution.

Apple not only has great technical execution, they have great design execution. There are many industries with lots of excellent companies capable of this combination (automobiles, musical instruments, film, firearms, fashion) but in software this combination is rare as hen's teeth. Thus Apple's dominance in certain markets and customer devotion.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#32

Post by [deleted] »

bumblebird wrote: post #29
Tichy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux, Windows and the whole PC world has also progressed a lot in the last 13 years, it seems a bit unfair to compare the state of now with the state 10 years ago. I am not saying Mac lovers don't love their PCs for a good reason - they have their personal reasons, so be it. All I said is that basically Macs also are just PCs. Also, it is not really fair to compare Apple to all the other PC vendors out there. Some o…

I was listing the OS's I use mainly. I still use windows every once in a while (When I really have to), and obviously use Linux on servers, and occasionally desktops. One of the key things that puts Apple in a different class though is that they create the hardware AND the software. That's a big bonus and gets rid of a ton of potential hickups.

[deleted]

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#33

Post by jstevens85 »

Tichy wrote: post #10
tfh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just to create some fancy looking PCs that's not true..

How is it not true?

Conduct a controlled experiment. Spilt the world into two parallel universes. In one, give your Mum or technologically illiterate sister a Macbook, and in the other, a Dell Inspiron. You will most likely find a more positive experience with the MacBook. Computers aren't just for socially autistic engineering nerds.

This probably doesn't need repeating, but there are a lot of hackers out there who appreciate a UNIX OS that works out of the box, runs commercial software not available on Linux, and can easily sync with your iPhone.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#34

Post by Tichy »

jstevens85 wrote: post #33
Tichy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not true?

Conduct a controlled experiment. Spilt the world into two parallel universes. In one, give your Mum or technologically illiterate sister a Macbook, and in the other, a Dell Inspiron. You will most likely find a more positive experience with the MacBook. Computers aren't just for socially autistic engineering nerds. This probably doesn't need repeating, but there are a lot of hackers out there who appreciate a UNIX OS…

As a matter of fact a Mac is the worst of the three options I could imagine to give to my mum. I keep saying to Mac fans, first try to explain it to your mum. Have you tried it?

It's all the small unintuitive things, like "x" doesn't close the application. There are no hints for accomplishing basic tasks like renaming a file or moving a file (Finder doesn't do cut, only copy). And so on... I consider myself experienced with computers, but on OS X I have to google how to accomplish the most basic tasks.

Really, please try it. You know, explain it to the kind of person who has to write down every step on paper. (Not that my mum is that bad - actually I have her on Ubuntu and she is doing fine). So that person has to write down "don't close the application with x, use cmd+q" - it's ridiculous.

Gestures look great in presentations - but how do you learn them? There are no hints in OS X as to what to use (OK, I can remember pinching and scrolling - but I don't resize pictures much, so guess what, it is not THAT helpful after all).

It's fine if people love their OS X (for whatever reason), but the claim that OS X is simpler is definitely not true.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#35

Post by philwelch »

10ren wrote: post #3

So Arrington was a lawyer, and a hot shot one at that. That may help explain why he rubs some people the wrong way - speaking as an LLB myself. I love Steve Jobs, but I think this article is disingenuous on a couple of counts. One, these disruptive industries that Jobs "created" were coming anyway. He's riding the wave, not creating it. Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC). Steve's tale…

No, the iPod was in development outside of Apple but Fadell had trouble getting investment.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#36

Post by philwelch »

Tichy wrote: post #34
jstevens85 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conduct a controlled experiment. Spilt the world into two parallel universes. In one, give your Mum or technologically illiterate sister a Macbook, and in the other, a Dell Inspiron. You will most likely find a more positive experience with the MacBook. Computers aren't just for socially autistic engineering nerds. This probably doesn't need repeating, but there are a lot of hackers out there who appreciate a UNIX OS…

As a matter of fact a Mac is the worst of the three options I could imagine to give to my mum. I keep saying to Mac fans, first try to explain it to your mum. Have you tried it? It's all the small unintuitive things, like "x" doesn't close the application. There are no hints for accomplishing basic tasks like renaming a file or moving a file (Finder doesn't do cut, only copy). And so on... I consider myself experienc…

My mum is dead now, but she happily owned a succession of iMacs for about ten years prior to that. My elderly father does just fine with the iMac too, though I actually had to turn off the right click to keep him from getting confused.

By the way, the "unintuitive" things you mention aren't unintuitive, just different from Windows. It's no less "unintuitive" than whether or not you set your parking brake with a pedal or a hand lever (so better not get your mum a Toyota if she has a Ford).

By the way, OS X is good enough at multitasking and memory allocation you don't have to actually quit your applications. It's sufficient to just close the window. That way it starts up faster when you want to use it again.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#37

Post by Tichy »

philwelch wrote: post #36
Tichy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a matter of fact a Mac is the worst of the three options I could imagine to give to my mum. I keep saying to Mac fans, first try to explain it to your mum. Have you tried it? It's all the small unintuitive things, like "x" doesn't close the application. There are no hints for accomplishing basic tasks like renaming a file or moving a file (Finder doesn't do cut, only copy). And so on... I consider myself experienc…

My mum is dead now, but she happily owned a succession of iMacs for about ten years prior to that. My elderly father does just fine with the iMac too, though I actually had to turn off the right click to keep him from getting confused. By the way, the "unintuitive" things you mention aren't unintuitive, just different from Windows. It's no less "unintuitive" than whether or not you set your parking brake with a pedal…

Maybe it only works for some people - fair enough. It doesn't work for me. I had to google for renaming a file. On other OS I just have to remember one rule: try the right mouse button. Instant expert.

As for not closing apps, I find that hard to believe. Maybe if you only ever use 3 apps it is OK. Otherwise, why even have a mechanism for starting and stopping apps? Could just start them all upon booting. (Actually this will probably be the future, but not yet).

Also it is very confusing if you have closed all windows of an app, but not the app itself. Because then if you click the app icon, nothing happens (it is already started, after all).

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#38

Post by pkaler »

10ren wrote: post #3

So Arrington was a lawyer, and a hot shot one at that. That may help explain why he rubs some people the wrong way - speaking as an LLB myself. I love Steve Jobs, but I think this article is disingenuous on a couple of counts. One, these disruptive industries that Jobs "created" were coming anyway. He's riding the wave, not creating it. Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC). Steve's tale…

The Apple ][ fundamentally changed the personal computer. The Macintosh fundamentally changed operating systems. Pixar fundamentally changed the film industry. The iTunes music store fundamentally changed the way music is distributed. The iPod fundamentally changed the way music is listened to. The iPhone fundamentally changed the mobile phone industry.

Sure, there were predecessors and prototypes. Sure, he had a ton of help. I count more than 3 decades of contribution so far. How many times does he have to be at the helm of a fundamental change before we stop having this discussion?

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#39

Post by boucher »

Anechoic wrote: post #20
10ren wrote: post #3

So Arrington was a lawyer, and a hot shot one at that. That may help explain why he rubs some people the wrong way - speaking as an LLB myself. I love Steve Jobs, but I think this article is disingenuous on a couple of counts. One, these disruptive industries that Jobs "created" were coming anyway. He's riding the wave, not creating it. Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC). Steve's tale…

Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC). Link? IIRC the term "iPod" was intended to be used for another product that may have preceeded Jobs' return but I this is the first I've heard about a portable mp3 player being developed at Apple before Jobs came back.

Not a particularly good source, but I've heard this several times over the years. The iPod was developed in six months:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/apple-more-th...

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#40

Post by GeneralMaximus »

Tichy wrote: post #34
jstevens85 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conduct a controlled experiment. Spilt the world into two parallel universes. In one, give your Mum or technologically illiterate sister a Macbook, and in the other, a Dell Inspiron. You will most likely find a more positive experience with the MacBook. Computers aren't just for socially autistic engineering nerds. This probably doesn't need repeating, but there are a lot of hackers out there who appreciate a UNIX OS…

As a matter of fact a Mac is the worst of the three options I could imagine to give to my mum. I keep saying to Mac fans, first try to explain it to your mum. Have you tried it? It's all the small unintuitive things, like "x" doesn't close the application. There are no hints for accomplishing basic tasks like renaming a file or moving a file (Finder doesn't do cut, only copy). And so on... I consider myself experienc…

> It's all the small unintuitive things, like "x" doesn't close the application.

That's because many OS X applications are document-based apps. All windows are either documents, or are meant for directly manipulating one single document. The 'X' is supposed to close the document, not the application. Applications in which the document-based approach does not work (Songbird, for example) will automatically quit when you close the last window. This is perfectly intuitive behavior for people who have been using Macs for a long time. Just because Windows does it differently (and Linux copies it blindly) does not mean it's the One True Way. In fact, I'd kill to get document-based apps in Linux and Windows.

> There are no hints for accomplishing basic tasks like renaming a file or moving a file. (Finder doesn't do cut, only copy)

You have a point here. I'd give anything to get 'Cut' in the Finder. But, then again, Finder is the second worst piece of software in OS X (the worst being iTunes).

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