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Lojban

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Re: Lojban

#61
post #12

Boy, I have fond memories of participating in the Lojban Yahoo group back in 2003 when I was 16. I carried around the Cowan book to my classes and loved reading random sections. I was in awe of how elegantly it was designed, and it inspired me to invent my own languages. My only complaint about the language was about the reliance on word order instead of prepositions to determine the relationship between nouns. It ma…

Hmm. With my programmer hat on, using word order to distinguish the parameters to a selbri feels very Haskell. However, using prepositions feels very Python (i.e. keyword parameters). I do agree with you about using keyword parameters. The Lojban way to do it would be to add single-syllable cmavo for each position, so that you'd tag parameters depending on what position you wanted them to fill. But this would involve…

Hey, guess what! There are single-syllable cmavo for doing exactly this! fa, fe, fi, fo and fu, respectively. Although the docs warn against using them too much because they might be hard to parse.

Re: Lojban

#62
I always wondered. Why do people learn languages like Lojban or Esperanto when you can learn some actual languages that actual people use? Why not learn Spanish, or Hindi, or Mandarin, or Arabic, or Russian... and learn a language nobody really speaks?

I don't mean it in a derogatory sense, I am merely personally interested; if I had the time and capacity to learn a new language, I would gather it's both more useful and more fun to learn an actual living language, with a rich culture and history.

Re: Lojban

#63
post #62

I always wondered. Why do people learn languages like Lojban or Esperanto when you can learn some actual languages that actual people use? Why not learn Spanish, or Hindi, or Mandarin, or Arabic, or Russian... and learn a language nobody really speaks? I don't mean it in a derogatory sense, I am merely personally interested; if I had the time and capacity to learn a new language, I would gather it's both more useful…

True or not, here's a very practical line of reasoning:

* It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in one's first acquired natural language takes about four years.

* It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in each subsequent acquired natural language takes about two years.[0]

* Learning a clean "constructed" language is reasonably efficient. Fluency in Esperanto or Lojban, for example, can be attained in as little as one year.

* Thus to learn, say, Swedish, it's fastest to learn Lojban first in one year, and then Swedish is a subsequent acquired language and only takes an additional two years.

* Conclusion: It's faster to learn "(Esperanto|Lojban) Swedish" than it is to learn Swedish alone.

I don't entirely subscribe to this theory, but it's an interesting speculation.

For me, I learned some constructed languages because I wondered if they would provoke the Sapir-Whorf effect. Anecdata: They did.

[0] The rationale is that the first requires un-learning things you've always taken for granted with regards your cradle language. Learning subsequent languages doesn't require that "un-learning, and so is quicker."

Re: Lojban

#64
post #62

I always wondered. Why do people learn languages like Lojban or Esperanto when you can learn some actual languages that actual people use? Why not learn Spanish, or Hindi, or Mandarin, or Arabic, or Russian... and learn a language nobody really speaks? I don't mean it in a derogatory sense, I am merely personally interested; if I had the time and capacity to learn a new language, I would gather it's both more useful…

My mum learned Esperanto - main motivation a kind of idealism where the world can come together with a common language without any particular culture dominating the others in the way you would tend to get if you chose say English as the common language. It also can be a social thing to meet others with a similar worldview.

Re: Lojban

#65

I've always wondered about the way predicate words are chosen in Loglan and Lojban, i.e. maximizing a weighted sum of phonemes common to the candidate word and the words in widely spoken natural languages. The only English speakers who would recognize "blanu" as corresponding to "blue" are those who know something about those conlangs, and I bet the same could be said for Chinese speakers and "lan". Esperanto is crit…

As an English speaker who once spoke a little Loglan (the 1978 dialect!), I think you're mistaken. Knowing "blue" definitely helps in remembering "blanu". Occasionally there was a word that didn't take a lot of its phonemes from English, and those were definitely harder to learn.

Obviously the benefit is going to be smaller if you don't speak one of the major source languages, but it still seems like a reasonable strategy to me for selecting vocabulary in an artificial language.

Re: Lojban

#66
post #62

I always wondered. Why do people learn languages like Lojban or Esperanto when you can learn some actual languages that actual people use? Why not learn Spanish, or Hindi, or Mandarin, or Arabic, or Russian... and learn a language nobody really speaks? I don't mean it in a derogatory sense, I am merely personally interested; if I had the time and capacity to learn a new language, I would gather it's both more useful…

True or not, here's a very practical line of reasoning: * It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in one's first acquired natural language takes about four years. * It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in each subsequent acquired natural language takes about two years.[0] * Learning a clean "constructed" language is reasonably efficient. Fluency in Esperanto or Lojban, for example,…

Tell us more about your anecdata! What specifically do you mean by "provoke"?

Re: Lojban

#67
If everyone used Lojban, I wonder how it'd evolve? Surely people would develop slang and shortcuts, until new dialects formed.

Re: Lojban

#68
I'll go ahead and plug my own introduction video which gives a light introduction to the core grammar concepts in lojban: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjSTUK3hFI

If you can absorb what's in this video, you could probably pick up lojban with little effort on the grammar side. Alas, vocabulary is just something you have to get through.

Re: Lojban

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True or not, here's a very practical line of reasoning: * It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in one's first acquired natural language takes about four years. * It's generally accepted that gaining reasonable fluency in each subsequent acquired natural language takes about two years.[0] * Learning a clean "constructed" language is reasonably efficient. Fluency in Esperanto or Lojban, for example,…

Tell us more about your anecdata! What specifically do you mean by "provoke"?

The polyglots I know all agree with a moderate form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which says that the language(s) you use affect what and how you think. In fact, when I say that some linguists find it controversial they look at me as if I'm demented. They just take it for granted that it's true.

BTW, this is often confused/conflated with "linguistic relativity"[0] and I'm not going to get into where one ends and the other starts. More, it seems that the effects are different for coordinate multilinguals versus compound multilinguals.[+]

Pinker says in "The Language Instinct"[1] that careful experiments show that it's nonsense. On the other hand, more recent work suggests that the effect is real, and that speaking a different language can result in measurable differences in your modes of thought, perception of time, and even your personality.[2][3][4][5][6][7]

So I was curious, but I didn't have time to learn an entire new language. But then I heard of LogLan, and subsequently Lojban, which was originally designed specifically for the purpose of testing this idea. The reasoning goes like this:

* Design a language that has something specific that is not present in any known "natural" language.

* Learn to speak it, and preferably raise some children with it as (one of) their cradle language(s)

* Measure their thinking and see if there are differences

* Use that to design a careful experiment to test the hypothesised effects.

So I learned (some) lojban in the hope that I would see some changes in my thinking. And I did. Specifically, after the weekend I spent learning the tense (spatial and temporal) system I found myself using tenses that I don't believe I'd ever used before. Someone asked if I'd enjoyed a party, and I started my reply with:

  "I would have had been having a good time,
   except that ..."
So I strongly believe that studying another language affects how you perceive things, and how you think about things.

[+] It is suggested that coordinate multilinguals[8] do not experience the same effects as compound multilinguals[8], even if they are equally fluent. A friend of mine, now sadly deceased, never completed his PhD, but his work showed an extremely clear split between coordinate and compound bilinguals (English/German) wherein the compound bilinguals showed a clear change of personality as they shifted language, but the coordinate bilinguals showed no measurable change. He never published, I only have a copy of his thesis without the data, and I promised I would never release it.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct

[2] http://www.communicaid.com/business-language-courses/blog/bi...

[3] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/uc/2014/06/c...

[4] http://lera.ucsd.edu/papers/language-time.pdf

[5] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3004943/Being...

[6] http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2013/11/multilingual...

[7] http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117485/multilinguals-have...

[8] http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631...

Edit: Note to self - extract this as a blog post.

Re: Lojban

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because language, to a large decree, determines your mode of thought. By learning a different language, you also learn how to think and reason differently. It doesn't matter whether you actually use it to talk to people or not. For example: some African languages don't have temporal tenses --- they don't distinguish between past, present and future. Some Scandinavian languages don't have gender, anywhere. Some langua…

I certainly don't think in language. Easy evidence: I know the idea of what I want to say, but I totally forget the word. Language is just something I have to compile to once the idea is fully formed. I understand that lots of people actually do think in language, but you shouldn't assume that everyone follows the same mental process.

Just because you can't think of a particular word at a given moment, do not assume that you are thereby not thinking in the language. Experiments show that it is far, far more subtle than you might imagine, and that your language affects how you think in ways you might not expect.

I've participated in experiments[0] that clearly showed that my perceptions of what was happening in my head with regards language were simply not true. Introspection is extremely subjective, and very poor at getting at reality.

[0] Participation required an NDA, so I can't tell you more.

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