Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean • Hacker News Board

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#41

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Sat, May 30, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #14

I find it fascinating that much of the hold up is having multiple signalling systems for each country in their train. Is there a web site that talks about the different systems in some more detail? I've been following Caltrain's installation of new signalling (in theory to support more frequent trains and the high speed rail service) and was surprised to find them as complicated as they are.

You might be interested in this update of CBOSS and Caltrain. http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2015/05/cboss-headed-for-tr...

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#42

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Sat, May 30, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #12

There is rail connection between Arkhangelsk and Sochi (that's around 2500 km), so why not with western europe shorter distances and faster trains. I don't see why they have to leave trains at all for customs. This seems easily fixable.

Because that's entirely within one country. Thats roughly the distance between London and Moscow.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#43

Post by gpvos » Sat, May 30, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #27

ChuckMcM wrote: post #14

I find it fascinating that much of the hold up is having multiple signalling systems for each country in their train. Is there a web site that talks about the different systems in some more detail? I've been following Caltrain's installation of new signalling (in theory to support more frequent trains and the high speed rail service) and was surprised to find them as complicated as they are.

The track sizes and electricity are also problematic. Portuguese and Spanish tracks have a smaller width than the rest of Europe. So Portuguese trains only travel to Spain (the few that exist). And Spanish trains have a system where they can change the width between the wheels when going to France. Similarly, trains travelling between Belgium and Germany, if I am not mistaken, have dual electricity system.

Border-crossing lines are utterly fascinating. The traditional visual signalling system tends to change exactly at the border, but you may find pre-signals just inside the other country. The in-cabin signalling and automatic train protection may or may not change at the same location. Changeover of the electrical system is more elaborate, and can take place at the border, a few kilometers inside one of the countries, or at one of the larger stations on either side, in which case you will find switchable tracks at that station.

There are different allowed widths and heights ("loading gauge") for train cars in different countries. Finally, few people know that the overhead lines veer a little bit to the left and right to spread the wear on the pantographs. The extent to which this happens also differs between countries, and some countries have narrower pantographs than others, which means that trains cannot just ride both in Germany and Switzerland even though they have the same electrical system.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#44

Post by gpvos » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:08 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #21

Scoundreller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, while going Canada->LHR->Schengen airport, I definitely had to go through UK security again, as well as passport control to connect to an "international" flight to France. I didn't even leave the terminal. "Everyone who boards an aircraft at Heathrow has to be security screened to UK government standards. Even if you've already been through security checks at another airport, we're obliged to screen you again b…

Fair enough. Maybe I'm spoiled by modern airports, which Heathrow definitely is not. When I change at modern airports, usually in Europe, I very rarely have to go out and back in again. In Geneva[1], the layout of the airport was essentially reconfigured around me to let me walk from one plane to the next. I was the only person doing it; I walked through empty glass-walled corridors, watching through the glass as oth…

Wow, that's almost Kafkaesque, but really neat.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#45

Post by dharma1 » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:10 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #7

"Passengers ... will need to get off at Lille, go up to the customs hall and in effect start their journey again. ... Even some of those who knew of the Lille stop were surprised to find they had to carry their luggage throughout" Who would want to do that? Not only that, the Marseille train leaves London at 07:19! Great for people in London, not so great if you live outside. Firstly, it might not be possible to get…

I did London -> Geneva eurostar over xmas hols. The change in Lille is shit. Broke my ankle rushing to the next train with all the luggage.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#46

Post by Brakenshire » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #7

"Passengers ... will need to get off at Lille, go up to the customs hall and in effect start their journey again. ... Even some of those who knew of the Lille stop were surprised to find they had to carry their luggage throughout" Who would want to do that? Not only that, the Marseille train leaves London at 07:19! Great for people in London, not so great if you live outside. Firstly, it might not be possible to get…

It's only one train a day, so it doesn't need to fulfil that much of a market (i.e. it's enough to cover just the people who are in central London and able to get there by 7.00). Also, it stops at Lyons and Avignon on the way, Marseille is an addition to the service, not the main purpose:

> In fact, a few days ago, getting the train to the UK, only a few passengers boarded at Marseille. But the Eurostar filled up nicely at Avignon and Lyon where it stops as it heads north.

Good point about the change, though. That really renders the headline untrue. It's not a direct service.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#47

Post by leonhandreke » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:30 PM UTC

> It was clear when I travelled back from Marseille that many passengers hadn't realised they would be required to leave the train at the northern city of Lille for passport checks.

When I travelled to/from Romania by train two years ago, border control officers got on the stop before the border, walked through the train to check passports and got off at the next stop, probably taking the next train back. This happened both going into Romania and going back into Hungary.

So, the UK probably wouldn't even have to join Schengen to make this a less painful process.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#48

Post by sasvari » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

leonhandreke wrote: post #47

> It was clear when I travelled back from Marseille that many passengers hadn't realised they would be required to leave the train at the northern city of Lille for passport checks. When I travelled to/from Romania by train two years ago, border control officers got on the stop before the border, walked through the train to check passports and got off at the next stop, probably taking the next train back. This happen…

It also works travelling from Russia to Finland: Russian boarder guards hop on and check you leaving the country, and then Finnish boarder guards do the same for entering Finland/EU/Schengen. It's not rocket science at all.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#49

Post by jeff_marshall » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #10

protomyth wrote: post #2

"After 9/11 air travel started to become far more time-consuming - for reasons of security which no one would ever criticise. People used to say no-one wanted to be on a train for more than three hours but I think four would now be more accurate." I'm with you on the 4 hours, but I would be happy to criticize the security theater after 9/11.

I agree. And theater is the right word. I just don't believe that all those procedures, such as taking out your laptop, bagging liquids, and removing your shoes, are actually useful in improving safety. It's also incredibly stressful for the staff. I was in line in the US once and one lady had a meltdown. She saw the queue of people going around the corner and basically just threw her hands up and quit. The face on h…

Agreed completely. I looked on post-9/11 US airport security with much frustration until I got global entry (which includes pre-check). Now, my experience is almost as good as pre-9/11 security (though I can't fly with a pocket knife or multi-tool...).

The whole thing (esp. the database-based pre-check scheme) is just so broken if there were and actual significant persistent threat that I wish we would re-evaluate the whole travel security procedure from a rational (rather than fear-based) perspective.

Re: Direct Train to Europe: London to the Mediterranean

#50

Post by Chris_Newton » Sat, May 30, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

justincormack wrote: post #4

Well not joining Schengen is stupid, and easily fixed.

I recently travelled from Cambridge, UK to Amsterdam. Given that I strongly dislike modern air travel for all the usual reasons, I went by train. It was striking just how much more pleasant that journey was than a flight to another European capital that I took not so long ago.

I had to be at the international terminal at St Pancras in London a half-hour before the train left, though I think some of the more expensive business-class tickets only require you to be there 10 minutes early.

Getting in meant showing ticket, passport, and some routine security scans, the latter being quick and not nearly as intrusive or theatrical as typical modern airport security. (I’m a rather private person, and just the possibility of being put through one of the virtual strip-search machines at an airport is enough to make me not want to fly anywhere any more, even without all the other hassle and time required.)

On the train, there probably are some luggage limitations if you read the full terms, but no-one was taking a ruler to my backpack or weighing my suitcase and charging me extra on the return journey just because I had added a 1kg souvenir. My suitcase was within reach/eyesight throughout my journey, and there was ample space for smaller luggage right by my seat throughout as well.

Perhaps the most striking thing of all was that once I was clear of the UK, changing trains at Brussels (from the international Eurostar from London to an also-international Thalys to Amsterdam) was as simple as changing local services back home. The second train literally pulled into the station a few minutes before it was due to leave, I just went onto the platform, and the only fuss at all was because the train had reserved seating so someone helpfully checked my ticket and pointed out where my seat was as I boarded.

I haven’t travelled between many different places within continental Europe (as distinct from travelling between the UK and a European destination) but if that’s the norm within the Schengen Area then we’re doing it wrong. Transport systems should be primarily about getting the travellers to where they want to go efficiently and pleasantly, and most of Europe appears to be much better at those things than we are.