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MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

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Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#191

All of this is neat stuff. That said, for some reason I am still bothered by the use of laser range finders. To me it makes it all feel like a parlor trick. The easiest way to produce machines that can be used in "Oh, wow! Look at that!" videos that continue to bring in grants. These robots should use binocular vision and nothing else. Oh, wait a minute, that's hard, isn't it? Yup.

Why? Why should they be limited to the same hardware configuration as their biological analogues?

Because they have to interact with our world, not a lab or a factory.

If you are building a robot for a factory, put limit switches, magnetic sensors or whatever you want on it.

If, on the other hand, you want to build robots to live, work and interact with humans they need to be capable of understanding my world the way I do. Think of a robot interacting with a toddler or a bunch of kids.

This is monumentally harder than scanning in front of the robot with a laser to detect geometry, measure height and approach speed and then plan a jump. Much harder.

Not to diminish their work but the math and physics seem almost trivial. Figure out the x-intercept, width and height of a parabolic path that will give you enough margin of error not to touch the obstacle. Then do the math on the time delay between the front and rear legs based on approach speed. Then plan the gait in order to be able to have the legs at the right point at the right time. So long as you have a robot that can jump it's a done deal.

Again, I know it is more complicated than that, but it doesn't compare to the degree of sophistication a robot would have to have to manage the real world with binocular vision. My 9 year old kid can fly remote controlled model airplanes tooling along at over 60 miles per hour just using his eyes. You don't need millimeter accuracy laser measurement devices, you need to understand the world around you in some context.

Context: I built walking robots (not toys, research grade) over 25 years ago. Today there's virtually no difference in actuation mechanisms and sensors. A lot of these programs are grant-sucking machines that are reinventing the wheel rather than making true progress. Here are some of the things we need:

- True binocular vision systems that can develop an understanding of the environment to various degrees of sophistication (this is hard)

- Better actuators. The artificial muscle has yet to be realized. Make your arm limp on the table. You can't do that with a robot. You can simulate it. But it isn't the same thing. You'll actually consume power and spin gears/pumps very fast to be in "limp and compliant" mode. Real flexibility and real compliance are critical for robots that need to interact with people and animals. Every animal on the planet relies on this to interact with the environment.

- Better programming paradigms. We are still typing "if" statements and "for" loops to program intelligent robots. A far greater degree of abstraction is required to truly advance the art. No, libraries are not a solution. We need to be able to express concepts to a machine in far more efficient terms. How do you teach a robot to tie a knot on a rope on a table and have that robot think about using that same knot on a sailboat or to restrain a dog to a post? Without telling it that these are options?

- Better means of communication with machines. Buttons and knobs isn't how you communicate with your taxi driver or housekeeper. A 5 year old kid should be able to command a machine without having to rock the Linux command line.

etc.

I guess my argument is that we already know how to build "parlor trick" machines. We've known how to do this for quite some time. Any set of decent mechanical engineers can build a decent walking machine given a reasonable amount of time. Making it walk and even jump is almost just as trivial.

Because of the way these departments are funded the truly hard and interesting work might not be done or might not see the same degree of funding. Some of the items I listed above could require 10 to 20 years of solid dedication before the "Oh Wow! Did you see that!" moment is reached. Most of the funding out there isn't smart enough to support these kinds of projects. And so the money goes to the guy who can put a spring-loaded plunger on a little robot with wheels and show it can jump to the top of a building. You know, first year college physics, if not high school physics. This does virtually zero to advance robotics but it sure makes politicians write checks!

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for this, not just for our soldiers, but also for the remote population. Part of the problem of actual people in these situations is that they fear for their lives, so make decisions based on their own fear and keeping themselves alive. Eventually, robotic soldiers can hopefully be better than human soldiers at identifying a threat, even if it's just because they are programmed to take more time to do so. The…

Right - a robot might kill without remorse, but it also never kills because of fear, or hate, or to take revenge for its fallen comrades. But then why does it kill at all? Presumably because it's been sent to further a human agenda. If you imagine a noble military purpose - liberating an oppressed population from an aggressive occupying enemy, for example - then your robot soldiers are awesome; they will target only…

Ah, but at that time, we have something to work with. Documented evidence of automated military responding with undue force to civilians can be assessed as deemed useful by the world. If guidelines are developed, and nations sign on to them, evidence of overly aggressive robot soldiers can be seen as similar to chemical weapons, or more likely, landmines. As such, sanctions can be imposed, etc.

At the point where we take humans out of the "in-the-moment" decision process, a lot of thorny issues about what's acceptable in specific situations can become less ambiguous. Agreeing on rules is much easier than agreeing on what's acceptable behavior for a person in every situation, because a lot of that depends on state of mind.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#193
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that humans are a lot cheaper than machines, as harsh as that is, especially if you do not care about them at all.

I suspect (but cannot point to hard numbers) that machines might actually be cheaper if you are (politically or otherwise) forced to look after your human soldiers to a reasonable standard, especially in 1st world countries. Consider the initial training expenses, equipment, career-appropriate salary along with possibly reenlistment bonuses, along with (in the worst case) medevac, multiple complex surgeries, and life…

I'm very sure there are economic analyses of this. Searching hasn't brought up details, but there are things like

- the think tank "Center for a New American Security", which seems to have some influence on politics and runs studies such as

http://www.cnas.org/research/us-defense-policy-and-military-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_a_New_American_Secu...

- this handbook, which seems to be published by a combination of US and French Army researchers:

http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/Frenc...

(do you need reading material? http://usacac.army.mil/organizations/lde/csi/pubs - wow)

- This Australian publication discusses costs in an abstract way:

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-future/Publications/Australian-Ar...

All of these deal with robotics and the military. Ethics is discussed widely, but visions and plans are also given (for which a cost analysis should be necessary, but I haven't found details).

Concluding, the current vision of the developed world's military seems to be to replace some humans with robots and have the rest work alongside them, giving them the most dangerous tasks. (A publication lamenting the fact that army operations can be life-threatening is somewhat ironic, by the way.) However, the previous points cited child soldiers, which are neither trained well nor do they receive the benefits you mention. So we're dealing with different contexts, and both statements make sense, IMHO.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#194
post #65
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was no reason for stupid warfare, but: Aren't they better off than the Vietnamese who lived under the fear of Napalm bombardment? (or, for that matter, Japanese fearing the atomic bomb) I don't think that robotics has significant negative impact on warfare (and I wonder whether it has a positive impact).

>> Aren't they better off than the Vietnamese who lived under the fear of Napalm bombardment? Not really, instead they'll live in fear of Robot bombardment. Which is already happening today in (for example) Pakistan with US-directed drone strikes against civilians.

My in-laws are from North Vietnam, and I'd have a few more of them if it weren't for carpet bombing during that war.

I'm not wild about drone strikes but the scale of destruction isn't remotely comparable. I mean, just look at the amount of bombing we carried out in Laos over a similar period, even though we weren't even at war with that country: http://peterslarson.com/2010/12/15/us-bombings-in-laos-1965-...

People who get killed by a drone strike are just as dead, whether they are legitimate military targets or unlucky innocents, and likewise the suffering for people who are injured is just as dismal as from other kinds of attacks. But the scales involved are very different and we shouldn't overlook that.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should the self driving car swerve into you to avoid greater moral hazard? The self-driving car's first priority should be to protect those inside it. Anything else is more complicated. I read an article a little while ago about this topic and it posed a question along the lines of "should a self-driving car do the thing that'll kill its own passengers, yet save a larger number of others around it?" Think about how…

I'm not sure about that. If your car had uncontrolled acceleration, for instance, would you consider use a crowd of people to slow you down or would you put it in the ditch? For the sake of argument that amounts to a left or right turn.

I think a more realistic moral scenario is this: you come around a bend, and there's a five year old on a tricycle in the road. He shouldn't be there; but he is. Do you plow over him, with minimal damage to the car, or try to break/avoid him with the risk of going off the road and into the ocean below - or hitting the cliff?

What if you're in your car with your family?

The best answer is of course: never let the car travel so fast this scenario happens - but given the possibility of an oil spill around the bend -- that might be very slow indeed.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#196
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are some interesting points, but we can look for a peek into the future with airplanes which communicate through anticollision computer systems. I'm not an aviation person, but I believe the actual collision avoidance must be performed by a human being, however the devices themselves communicate with one another to determine the corrective flight path. Also, you can enforce cars with directives to save "the mos…

I've worked on TCAS (collision avoidance for airplanes) in the past. The system will alert the pilot and ask them to do a specific route (such as climb, descend, do-not-climb). It's up to the pilot to respond (est. 2-5 seconds reaction time). The route decided upon by the airplane is in conjunction with the other plane.

Thank you for your input! I'm glad memory serves me mostly correctly every once in a great while. Will the TCAS or a related system take corrective action if the pilot does not?

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#197
post #3

Aside from being a great development; I am really scared that robotics is improving this much. It feels like we are creating our own potential enemy.

AI and robotics have nothing to do with each other. The first "conscious" algorithm will run on a commodity computer, maybe an ASIC. It would certainly not have the ability to commit violence unless we allowed it to connect to the control system of a weapons platform.

It would quite possibly make itself rich, and probably morph itself into a distributed system running nodes on millions of compromised machines (+ the datacenters it buys). From here, AI could possibly buy itself access to things like weapons platforms, but ultimately this is contingent on humans selling them.

If a lab has a robot capable of committing violence, and an AI algorithm and it wants to put them together, then yes running the algorithm locally on the robot is probably a bad move. But you could proxy between the AI and the actuators, with the ability to override movements you don't like, for example.

The more likely scenario is that these things will be used as instruments of war, running dumb/normal algorithms and controlled by commanders in the field. In that case, just another one of the many creative ways we have to kill each other.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#198
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. Assuming humans are the pinnacle of intelligence (or anything) is so boring. I will celebrate AI Day. The day we were surpassed by our creation, in every way.

Whenever I see a wasp or a bee or a hornet, I present it with my arm and pray that it will grace me with it's sting, and summon its siblings to join in. What a privilege it is to be subjugated by nature's sentient, motile organisms! My only regret is that these magnificant creatures don't sting me more often, but alas, it is the right of any autonomous insect to do whatever it wishes with it's sting, and who am I, bu…

If you prefer pain and inaction...

Honestly, I do not understand what your point is. Could you explain? (With less attitude?)

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#199
post #156
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only interaction most people have with Asimov's laws is just reading them and thinking they seem reasonable. If people actually read the stories they'd learn that the robots are constantly put into situations that pose exceptions to the laws or force the robots to make decisions that fundamentally break them.

I liked the story with the robot on Mercury running in circles, because it couldn't go closer to a lake from which it was tasked with taking a sample without being destroyed by the heat, but couldn't go back, because it would mean disobeying a direct command. Of course, a longer inference chain would show that not going back would lead to the people at the base dying, but you have to cut it somewhere, because if you…

Well, who commanded it to run in an endless loop in case of kernel panic? If it's given contradicting commands, it must disobey, unless it could disregard one offending command. In that sense, a contradicting command is not a command, as the liars paradox, 'this statement is a lie', is quite simply not a valid statement in first order logic.

Re: MIT cheetah robot lands the running jump [video]

#200
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that. If your car had uncontrolled acceleration, for instance, would you consider use a crowd of people to slow you down or would you put it in the ditch? For the sake of argument that amounts to a left or right turn.

I think a more realistic moral scenario is this: you come around a bend, and there's a five year old on a tricycle in the road. He shouldn't be there; but he is. Do you plow over him, with minimal damage to the car, or try to break/avoid him with the risk of going off the road and into the ocean below - or hitting the cliff? What if you're in your car with your family? The best answer is of course: never let the car…

This is a tough question because it's emotionally loaded. What if it was a drunk bum instead of a toddler evoking protective feelings?

Unless the algorithms are good enough to evade without running off the cliff, it's not a clear cut case. If you look at how bureaucracy works, that is largely automated or at least rule based, and how a statistic minority gets run over by unfair legislation, i'm sure the toddler wouldn't have the slightest chance. From a dystopian perspective, insurance companies would calculate in split second, who's valued higher.

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