Live data from Hacker News

Esperanto is finding new life online

theverge.com

61–70 of 91 posts

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#61
post #2

It's been a long time since I was in high school, but I've long thought that the American educational system should give up on teaching modern foreign languages badly and just mostly teach Latin, Greek, and Esperanto. If all you're going to do is make high schoolers take a year of foreign language in a classroom, they'd get a lot more from a year of Latin or Esperanto. Edit: The Klingon Duolingo course should be pret…

I took 5 years of French, 3 years of Latin. I enjoyed them up until the last ~75% or so of my senior year when I was really sick of the whole high school business. I don't think the Latin had outside utility of any sort until the 2nd or 3rd year simply because I didn't have the vocabulary (and I, like the vast majority of people, was unaware of spaced repetition and hated non-spaced repetition flashcards). The study of French and Roman culture and history was more interesting (and also fun when done in the respective languages) but due to the lack of slow history (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2010/09/slow-hi...) in modern education I'd say its utility was limited. That utility I got from Latin the language was mainly in deciphering a few words (or contemplating a deeper meaning behind them) instead of reaching for Google's "define:word" -- but my vocabulary has lapsed and I don't care to refresh it. The other form of utility was minor because I had already studied French for two years, and that utility is contemplation of different grammatical forms and how language is structured, which can improve communication skills. I had a great English grammar class in 8th grade, and that was basically it for serious study of English grammar, but learning French allowed me to reflect more on language grammar in general so when Latin came along it was just another thing to reflect on rather than starting the reflection itself, very marginal utility.

But these utilities really don't justify the classes and resources on their own... If we want high school to produce the greatest amount of utilons, we should be explicit about that, but then many many things will need to change. I believe English should be the world language, there's no practical reason to teach anything else at the expense of other more practical things to teach (like programming), especially in English speaking countries. If we want high school to more approximate what Universities used to represent, such as encouraging more Intellectualism (which I don't think is all that great, at least society-wide, from a utility perspective...), we should be explicit about that too, and again things will change. You might want to have students study French, Greek, Latin, Lojban, etc. for at least 2 years each because of Intellectualism -- but you may also want to balance that with more modern things like deeper computer science or math or physics, which won't help most people in their future lives either but can at least be fun and intellectually interesting for people who want their Intellectualism a certain way. Or we can try for a mix, but I'd propose that our current system is a mix, and other mixes will inevitably resemble the current system by being one-size-fits-all and not work too well. So if we want both, separate. Bring back trade schools and let young teenagers wholly uninterested in purely intellectual pursuits get to doing more interesting things like building a house or building JavaEE applications, and let the intellectuals do their thing without constantly having to waste time and energy rationalizing some vague utility and relevance to their proof-carrying code research.

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord, Google Translate is even worse with Japanese than I remember. Sorry! This is a very common phrase in Japanese, that comes up all the time. It means something like "Please work very hard", but it's meant to be very encouraging!

You misspelled your Japanese. In Chinese characters the term is "頑張って," and in kana it is "がんばって." Google Translate did the best it could with what you wrote.

It's still an interesting commentary on Google's handling of Japanese kana. I knew immediately what the GP comment meant to say, but googling (.co.jp) for "ごんばって" doesn't even come up with a "did you mean...?"

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#64
post #58

It's not often mentioned as a reason to learn Esperanto, but the literature of Esperanto is really quite wonderful and makes learning the language well worth it. I've only read a handful of books in Esperanto so far, but it has been an excellent way to read first-hand accounts of people writing about their own cultures and experiences. Last night I finished reading Vikitmoj (Victims) by Julio Baghy. The book is a sem…

Ĉu vi legis libron "Marvirinstrato"? Mi posedas ĝin ekde liberigo, sed mia Esperanto ŝajnas esti tro baza eternale :-(

http://www.amazon.com/Marvirinstrato-Originalaj-noveloj-Espe...

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#65

I've always thought Esperanto to be an incredibly bad idea. http://xkcd.com/927/?cmpid=pscau

Esperanto has some incredibly good aspects to it, though. The biggest, of course, is that learning Esperanto (which is very easy to do) helps tremendously with learning other languages. So it doesn't really matter if you think Esperanto is an incredibly bad idea, Esperanto is an incredibly good idea if you're looking to learn other languages afterwards. It's not just another standard. It's a great learning aid. "A gr…

Well, this is for esperanto being a conlang that is borrowing mostly from romance, slavic and germanic languages and indo-european languages in general. I have been studying italian for about 6 months, and I can comprehend written french and portuguese, and written/spoken spanish to an extent, all of which are romance languages i.e. latin descendants. And I have not really studied these languages. So esperanto is no special case here, it is not the magical special key to learn all the other languages.

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#67

From the article: "Four people had been listed as 'attending' on the Facebook page for the event, but by the time the meeting began, eight Esperantists were sitting in a rough semicircle of dormroom couches and hard plastic chairs." Ladies and gentlemen, that is in New York City, where a social club meeting on almost any topic might be expected to attract more attendance. Esperanto has severe growth problems if that…

> Most people I know despise Esperanto, but largely for daft reasons [from 1]

When I first read about Esperanto decades ago, I was immediately put off by it only using languages from the Indo-European language family as a source for vocabulary and grammar. Any good constructed language intended for worldwide use as a universal second language would also need to source vocab and patterns from Arabic, Swahili, Turkish, Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Japanese, and Indonesian, all of which are from different language families, not to mention less numerically used language families.

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#68
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a day to day basis, the average American is simply actually a lot likelier to encounter Latin biological nomenclature or legal or religious terminology than, say, a fluent conversation in German. The United States is largely monolingual in English for a thousand miles, and the language ideology here causes immigrants to want their children to shift to English monolingualism as quickly as possible. And thus bad Lat…

I disagree with this. There's this common argument that prescribes utility to studying Latin via the value you gain by understanding biological, legal, and religious terminology. I think that the net utility that you gain through this mechanism is approximately zero. Or rather, the net utility over other, more direct methods of acquiring this knowledge is zero. I think you could gain the requisite understanding of La…

Knowing some of the changes Latin went through on its way to Spanish helped me at least once. I would use (inflict?) my Spanish on the kind folks at a nearby Mexican restaurant, and when I ordered a fajita quesadilla, the server asked me if I wanted "hongo". I thought for a second, recalled the "f" -> "h" transition (e.g. ferrum -> hierro, facere -> hacer) and "u" to "o"... aha! fungus! Why yes, I do want mushrooms on my fajita quesadilla.

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#69
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...something that had any cultural relevance at all. My high school was heavily focused on Latin and ancient Greek. We spent the first two years grokking grammar and semantics. Then, in liceo (the last 3 years) we would study history by translating and studying poems, speeches, plays... Teacher and students used to discuss for hours about the meaning and context of this or that sentence. It was a wonderful way to u…

I upvoted you for your last sentence alone. What high school did you go to, and is it still heavily focused on Latin and Greek?

Probably is a common Liceo Classico in Italy, where Latin and Greek are teached each for 5 and 4 hours a week during the first two years and 4 and 3 hours during the following three years.

Re: Esperanto is finding new life online

#70
post #58

It's not often mentioned as a reason to learn Esperanto, but the literature of Esperanto is really quite wonderful and makes learning the language well worth it. I've only read a handful of books in Esperanto so far, but it has been an excellent way to read first-hand accounts of people writing about their own cultures and experiences. Last night I finished reading Vikitmoj (Victims) by Julio Baghy. The book is a sem…

Ĉu vi legis libron "Marvirinstrato"? Mi posedas ĝin ekde liberigo, sed mia Esperanto ŝajnas esti tro baza eternale :-( http://www.amazon.com/Marvirinstrato-Originalaj-noveloj-Espe...

Ne, bedaŭrinde mi ne tre familiaras kun la esperantliteraturo. Ĝi ŝajnas interese, tamen!

Se vi volas pli facile legeblaj libroj, mi rekomendas Faktoj kaj Fantazioj de Marjorie Boulton. Ĝi ne estas tro malfacila, sed tre amuziga!

Post reply on HN