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What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

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Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#11

Post by Tichy »

bumblebird wrote: post #7
Tichy wrote: post #4

I must admit that this article rather made me realize that most of what Apple did is just to create some fancy looking PCs. The iPhone was revolutionary indeed, but overall the achievements seem overblown. I still think that Steve Jobs is cool, though.

The % of people who use macs because they're "fancy looking" is pretty small. Most use them for a variety of other reasons - build quality, unixy, os+hardware from single vendor=less issues etc As well as all the cool gadgety stuff multitouch/mag power connector, mag lids etc

Yeah, they are still just PCs - maybe pretty good PCs (if you like the style), but still just PCs. Sorry.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#12

Post by invisible »

Tichy wrote: post #11
bumblebird wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The % of people who use macs because they're "fancy looking" is pretty small. Most use them for a variety of other reasons - build quality, unixy, os+hardware from single vendor=less issues etc As well as all the cool gadgety stuff multitouch/mag power connector, mag lids etc

Yeah, they are still just PCs - maybe pretty good PCs (if you like the style), but still just PCs. Sorry.

That's like saying a house is just a house, a car is just a car, or a job is just a job. When the details are left out, there is no comparative analysis and it pretty much fails at making a point.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#13

Post by Tichy »

invisible wrote: post #12
Tichy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they are still just PCs - maybe pretty good PCs (if you like the style), but still just PCs. Sorry.

That's like saying a house is just a house, a car is just a car, or a job is just a job. When the details are left out, there is no comparative analysis and it pretty much fails at making a point.

I don't think it is. There are only a few categories for PCs (server, desktop, notebook, netbook), stuff like that. I think if you say Apple most people have an idea in which categories to compare. It's not like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche. More like comparing a VW to a Toyota or something.

You make it sound as if Apple PCs are beyond comparison, a class of their own. Which they aren't. I am not saying they are not good (another discussion), but I don't see the supposed revolutionary part.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#14

Post by wtallis »

sleepingbot wrote: post #6

NeXT could have ended in the perfect Linux distro, open sourced, leading the Linux kernel development, making the distros environment even richer (Mac Linux for mac users, Ubuntu-Debian & similars for those who don't buy Apple hardware, Chrome OS for netbookers; and minoritary distros for the ones who tweak their own flavor.) The world would be a better place. The hardware? Some has been good. Some really advanced to…

NeXTSTEP wasn't based off the Linux kernel, and I think even if it had been GPL'd, it probably wouldn't have ended up that the Linux port was the preferred way to run it. Consider that OPENSTEP/Mach was contemporaneous with Red Hat Linux 4 and kernel 2.0. Everybody in the market for a desktop Linux distribution at the time would have jumped ship. If anything, the Mach 2.5 microkernel would have been stripped out in favor of a pure FreeBSD system, which would probably have resulted in Linux having the same also-ran status that the BSDs have now.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#15

Post by bumblebird »

Tichy wrote: post #13
invisible wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying a house is just a house, a car is just a car, or a job is just a job. When the details are left out, there is no comparative analysis and it pretty much fails at making a point.

I don't think it is. There are only a few categories for PCs (server, desktop, notebook, netbook), stuff like that. I think if you say Apple most people have an idea in which categories to compare. It's not like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche. More like comparing a VW to a Toyota or something. You make it sound as if Apple PCs are beyond comparison, a class of their own. Which they aren't. I am not saying they are n…

It's more like comparing a Porsche to a Lada.

The amount of time people have to waste on PCs waiting for the OS, doing anti virus stuff, staring at blue screens of death, rebooting because it's got confused, etc etc

But this isn't an OS war thread :) Suffice to say, "It's still just a PC" is completely missing the point. A top class restaurant still 'just' serves food, but you can't really compare it to Macdonalds.

And to many people, Apple are in a class of their own. If I didn't currently use a macbook, I'm not really sure what else I would use. Some of the Asus laptops look ok enough (At least like cheap copies of Apple design), and maybe Ubuntu is getting mature enough on the desktop to be useful, but there's not an obvious alternative.

Regarding "I don't see the revolutionary part", you don't have to be revolutionary to be better than everything else. People use Apple stuff because it works and is well thought out. It stays out of their way and lets them achieve what they want to. It's designed to make everything as seamless and useful for the user as is possible.

Some people just want a car to get them from A to B. So they buy a standard boring crappy Ford or something that looks like a dog. As long as it gets them from A to B, they're ok. Others actually love the 'driving' bit, and enjoy it, as well as having a thing of beauty. So they buy a better car. Same is true with computers (And most other things).

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#16

Post by foulmouthboy »

Tichy wrote: post #13
invisible wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying a house is just a house, a car is just a car, or a job is just a job. When the details are left out, there is no comparative analysis and it pretty much fails at making a point.

I don't think it is. There are only a few categories for PCs (server, desktop, notebook, netbook), stuff like that. I think if you say Apple most people have an idea in which categories to compare. It's not like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche. More like comparing a VW to a Toyota or something. You make it sound as if Apple PCs are beyond comparison, a class of their own. Which they aren't. I am not saying they are n…

The way Apple has set themselves up with OS X actually does make themselves a class of their own. The decisions beyond just looks (e.g. will the software I need run? Do I prefer OS X to Windows? Do I need antivirus software?) make it so that comparing an Apple to anything else really is like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#17

Post by parenthesis »

Tichy wrote: post #4

I must admit that this article rather made me realize that most of what Apple did is just to create some fancy looking PCs. The iPhone was revolutionary indeed, but overall the achievements seem overblown. I still think that Steve Jobs is cool, though.

To an extent, making `fancy looking PCs' was Apple's initial strategy upon the return of Jobs, to try to obscure the creaky old OS 8 / OS 9 which they were stuck with until the very time-consuming task of turning the Next OS into a version of OS X ready for the big time was complete. Quickly make a bold, attention-grabbing statement with the iMac casing, and milk that as long as possible until the real big attraction (OS X) is ready.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#18

Post by Tichy »

bumblebird wrote: post #15
Tichy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is. There are only a few categories for PCs (server, desktop, notebook, netbook), stuff like that. I think if you say Apple most people have an idea in which categories to compare. It's not like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche. More like comparing a VW to a Toyota or something. You make it sound as if Apple PCs are beyond comparison, a class of their own. Which they aren't. I am not saying they are n…

It's more like comparing a Porsche to a Lada. The amount of time people have to waste on PCs waiting for the OS, doing anti virus stuff, staring at blue screens of death, rebooting because it's got confused, etc etc But this isn't an OS war thread :) Suffice to say, "It's still just a PC" is completely missing the point. A top class restaurant still 'just' serves food, but you can't really compare it to Macdonalds. A…

It's so funny that all Apple fanboyism is automatically voted up. Incidentally I currently use a MacBook that is less than a year old. In recent weeks I frequently had to hard reset it because it froze to an eternal spinning sand clock. Earlier this week I noticed with Disk Utility that there were errors on the disk. I tried to repair them, had to boot from DVD for that. The repair failed. After that OS X didn't boot anymore. I ended up reinstalling OS X (which was only possible after overwriting the disk with zeros, before that the installation failed), losing some data despite of Time Machine. (Incidentally the hard disk seems to be fine, so it wasn't a hardware failure - it was the OS).

Just saying, the "easier to use, no rebooting, no blue screens of deaths" are a complete marketing fabrication. Except that on OS X the death screens are not blue.

Edit: as for your edited part - I am not saying Apple PCs are bad (holding my opinion back), but the article made it out as if they are revolutionary. That is what I am arguing against.

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#19

Post by Tichy »

foulmouthboy wrote: post #16
Tichy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is. There are only a few categories for PCs (server, desktop, notebook, netbook), stuff like that. I think if you say Apple most people have an idea in which categories to compare. It's not like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche. More like comparing a VW to a Toyota or something. You make it sound as if Apple PCs are beyond comparison, a class of their own. Which they aren't. I am not saying they are n…

The way Apple has set themselves up with OS X actually does make themselves a class of their own. The decisions beyond just looks (e.g. will the software I need run? Do I prefer OS X to Windows? Do I need antivirus software?) make it so that comparing an Apple to anything else really is like comparing a Hummer to a Porsche.

Yeah but so is Linux or whatever. They are not significantly better than other PCs, just different in matters of taste. Come on, they even use the same hardware as other PCs (CPU, GPU hard drive...).

Re: What If Steve Jobs Hadn’t Returned To Apple In 1997?

#20

Post by Anechoic »

10ren wrote: post #3

So Arrington was a lawyer, and a hot shot one at that. That may help explain why he rubs some people the wrong way - speaking as an LLB myself. I love Steve Jobs, but I think this article is disingenuous on a couple of counts. One, these disruptive industries that Jobs "created" were coming anyway. He's riding the wave, not creating it. Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC). Steve's tale…

Two, the iPod was in development at Apple before he returned (IIRC).

Link? IIRC the term "iPod" was intended to be used for another product that may have preceeded Jobs' return but I this is the first I've heard about a portable mp3 player being developed at Apple before Jobs came back.

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