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Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

nytimes.com

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Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#391

Post by tptacek »

psykovsky wrote: post #302
drfuchs wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curtis Green is a real person, who really worked for Ross, who really was afraid Ross would have him killed, and who in fact Ross did try to have killed. See the very beginning of Joshuah Bearman's "The Rise and Fall of Silk Road" in Wired.

You forgot the part where he wanted Curtis Green dead because of a theft of USD$350,000.00 in Bitcoin commited by the dirty undercover DEA agent who he then hired to murder Curtis Green.

You forgot the part where he wanted Curtis Green dead because of a theft of --- not sure why I need to read past this point.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#392

Post by vacri »

pkinsky wrote: post #342
itistoday2 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying drugs don't hurt anyone? Drugs, like spoons, hurt people. Some other items that kill people include: Cars. Motorcycles. Trees. Water. Too much air. Too little air. People. Dogs. Sticks. Bath tubs. Guns. In the end, drugs are no more inherently harmful than any of the items listed above. What usually kills people, however, is not drugs, but things associated with drugs that exist only because we hav…

>Yeah, I remember reading news stories all the time about how Canadians overdose on maple syrup or how Egyptians overdose on water. Truly, all drugs are just as innocuous as air and puppies. Maple syrup may not have been a good example http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/statistics

Nice rejoinder to 'Canadians overdose on maple syrup' - a page about a generic disease that never mentions maple syrup nor Canadians, nor dosage.

Here is an in-kind rebuttal to your link: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-like-turtles

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#393

Post by srdev »

wclax04 wrote: post #94

Wouldn't the USPS/FedEx/UPS also be liable as a drug courrier?

No. Intent and context matters. USPS/FedEx/UPS are businesses that primarily perform legal services, and follow US laws when its discovered that they were used for illicit purposes. On the other hand, Silk Road was built from the bottom up as a black market to service illegal goods. The idea that they just provided an anonymous marketplace and that unfortunately had illegal stuff happen on it is transparent lie that ignores the work Ross and his team put into promoting it as a drug marketplace.

Context and intent are important and laws aren't computer programs.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#394

Post by tptacek »

worklogin wrote: post #254
drcode wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand that the "murder for hire" evidence was introduced as part of the trial (at which point Ross' lawyer could have disputed it, but didn't) so it could be used as part of the sentencing decision... and that kind of takes the luster off of the "non-violent crime" argument.

From the articles I've read, this was not part of the sentencing.

It very much was a part of the sentencing.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#395

Post by tptacek »

gwern wrote: post #361
smhenderson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've been seeing the other comments about that. As I said I'm not 100% up to speed on the details. I'd like to see more evidence that he actually was being convicted of that though and not just that it was a factor in determining sentencing. I don't doubt it's possible he was trying to contract a hit but the stories about the FBI stinging him, etc. make me a bit suspicious.

> I'd like to see more evidence that he actually was being convicted of that though He was not charged for murder itself. During the trial testimony, they were very clear about this (regardless of whatever tptacek may say based on a few random pretrial documents); they worded it so the plots entered in as SR related activity and Bitcoin transactions but that was not part of the charges. From the trial itself: https:/…

By "random pretrial documents" you are in this case referring to the indictment itself, which is the premise of the entire trial.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#396

Post by srdev »

jMyles wrote: post #390
srdev wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because a lot of people are simply ignoring the evidence available since they have an ideological stake in Ross's non-violence. The balance of probability here is that Ross intended to kill 6 people and fucked it up.

Still, I prefer for the evidence to be presented in an open forum, under oath and subject to rebuttal, before I will believe it. And yes, I think I have a sort of psychological "stake" as you say in Ross' non-violence.

The evidence in question, Ross's journals and chat logs, were presented in trial and subject to rebuttal. He wasn't being tried for those crimes; those charges are still pending, but they were material to the case and the defense failed to dispute them. At the present moment, it is highly probable that he intended to have 6 people, including the innocent roomates of his targets, murdered.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#397

Post by themeek »

Natsu wrote: post #385
themeek wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in this case wasn't a crisis situation (there being a defector with SR secrets) fabricated by the police and a third of a million dollars disappeared? Would this sort of thing count as doing something to overcome resistance? It's not likely that an anonymous person offering to 'help take care of the situation' would have enticed him - he needed a scenario that compelled him and this scenario was fabricated.

It's hard to see how being blackmailed regarding the details of one's illegal activity could count as entrapment for murder. It seems to me that DPR came up with murder as the 'solution' to this problem, even if we claim that the problem itself was entirely manufactured. Entrapment defenses are only supposed to prevent innocent people from being coerced by police into committing a new crime, not to provide a get out…

According to Wikipedia: Blackmail is an act, often a crime, ... Essentially, it is coercion involving threats of ... of criminal prosecution.

Similar searches for the legal distinction between extortion and blackmail consider blackmail a form of coercion.

Given (A) that blackmail is coercion (psychological pressure), and (B) coercing someone into committing a crime is entrapment. Would (A) and (B) then not imply that (C) blackmailing should count as entrapment?

DPR did not come up with a hitman as a solution. Law enforcement made the suggestion. They did not use the words, just had their fake identity offer to take care of the situation.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#399

Post by tptacek »

gwern wrote: post #362
hristov wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to the murder for hire plots, apparently five people died after using drugs purchased on silk road.

The prosecution didn't make a very good case for the 5 deaths; a lot of missing information and they were using other drugs and had other health issues.

By "other health issues", you are might be referring "Jordan M", who was found cold to the touch with Silk Road open on his computer, a looped belt by his dangling arm, and an open express mail package full of heroin on his desk, who was found at autopsy to have died of intoxication by xanax, heroin, and valium --- all three of which he ordered on SR. The "other health issues" here are the fact that "Jordan M." was, as Ulbricht's lawyer described him in his sentencing memo, an "overweight 27-year old black man".

It's interesting to note that even if one of these overdose victims had health problems that predisposed them to overdose mortality --- something that is pretty far from being established --- there is actually a legal rule that contemplates this circumstance directly: google "the eggshell skull rule". The prosecution memo invokes the rule.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#400

Post by srdev »

haberman wrote: post #38

I don't know enough about this story to have an overall opinion, but this particular exchange made me angry: > His lawyer, Joshua L. Dratel, in submissions to the judge, argued that the website’s “harm reduction” ethos made it safer than traditional drug dealing on the street. > But prosecutors, in their memo, argued that praising Silk Road for “harm reduction measures” was “akin to applauding a heroin dealer for han…

> When one side of the argument is based in real-world impacts, and the other side has nothing but an appeal to existing rules, it's a pretty good indication that the rules need changing.

One side is based on a "claimed" real-world impact. Its somewhat plausible but ultimately isn't backed by real evidence.

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