Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 641 posts

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#261

Post by Retric »

542458 wrote: post #221
Retric wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may have qualified as entrapment which could be why he was not brought up on charges for this. Still, IMO it is reasonable to bring that up as a character issue.

How would that be entrapment? The police have to remove your ability to make a choice for it to be entrapment. http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-wa...

They don't have to remove your choice. They need to significantly change your mind.

Basically, if the undercover cop suggests X and you say no. Then come on nobody will know, and you say no. And then they spend the next six weeks convincing you it's a good idea, then that's entrapment.

The issue is he was on a sting for over a year and that's plenty of time to cross the line.

Of note, asking several times and catching someone at a moment of weakness is not entrapment. So, if you have been clean for 10 years then you’re out of luck.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#262

Post by hristov »

smhenderson wrote: post #13

That seems way too harsh to me. I have strong opinions on the US War on Drugs and it's failure to meaningful deal with drug use/abuse in the USA. And I feel even worse about how it's spilling out into the rest of the world as we go "global" with everything. I can't say I know every detail of the case but I don't recall anyone getting killed or even hurt by Mr. Ulbricht so in my mind the punishment does not fit the cr…

In addition to the murder for hire plots, apparently five people died after using drugs purchased on silk road.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#263

Post by GreenCarnation »

themeek wrote: post #232
redthrowaway wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still be charged with soliticing a minor if you happen to be a star on To Catch a Predator. Just because the minor in question never existed doesn't mean it's not a crime.

Is it not known as entrapment to present a false situation in order to get a conviction or indictment, even if it's to confirm on behalf of the target a tendency or willingness to participate in the activity were to be real - and illegal because of its implications for abuse and its lack of real damage?

Nope. Entrapment requires the police to have caused someone to commit a crime they wouldn't have otherwise. A good explanation of what counts as entrapment: http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-wa...

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#264

Post by logfromblammo »

haberman wrote: post #165
anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that prosecutors have a professional duty to zealously argue the government's case just as the defense lawyers have a duty to zealously argue for innocence or lenity of their clients. Unfortunately judges no longer have that much discretion to weigh the competing arguments because of the mandatory sentencing guidelines Congress came up with. It has since been established by the Supreme Court that the gui…

My understanding is that this entire discussion is in the context of sentencing, and that the defense's argument here is in that context. If the defense had made the harm reduction argument in the context of the guilty/not-guilty question, that would be one thing. But in the sentencing phase, it seems appropriate to take into account the actual harm of the crimes involved. When the prosecution's answer to this discus…

Lex talionis has been a part of human legal tradition for at least 3700 years. The retaliatory penalty shall be equal or lesser than the harm caused by the crime.

This is a big problem with victimless crimes and offenses against the public welfare. The extent of actual harm to actual people cannot be easily measured, so there is no rational limit upon punishments levied against the offenders.

Evidence that a criminal intentionally acted in such a way as to reduce the potential harms wrought by his crimes is VERY relevant to sentencing, in my opinion. The same holds true for malice and negligence.

For instance, if you sell heroin, that's illegal. If you refused to sell heroin to people younger than 18, and also embargoed and beat the excrement out of anyone you discovered to be passing heroin on to minors, that would still be pretty awful. But it would also show that you were making some attempt to be less awful than you could be. If, perhaps, you kidnapped any customer who lost his job, and forced him to dry out and clean up in your own private rehab, that would still be pretty nasty. But it would also show a commitment to reduction of harm. You should probably get a below-median sentence, as punishments for drug kingpins go.

Contrariwise, if you keep your drug stash and your loaded shotgun in your baby's crib, then screw you, buddy; you're getting the maximum on all counts.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#265

Post by Retric »

omegaham wrote: post #245
Retric wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may have qualified as entrapment which could be why he was not brought up on charges for this. Still, IMO it is reasonable to bring that up as a character issue.

I don't think that qualifies as entrapment. In general, entrapment is when the police convince you to commit a crime that you wouldn't have committed otherwise . So, if you want to kill your wife, and your friend (FBI agent) happens to say one day, "Hey, I do a little killing on the side, just for gits and shiggles," and you hire him, that's not entrapment. In contrast, if the agent is manipulating you and saying, "H…

I completely agree, the point is a 1 year sting is plenty of time for someone to cross the line, and they did not bring the charges up for some reason, so it’s a possibility.

I suspect it's more likely they wanted to convict him on just the SR charges because that's better publicity, but it’s still odd.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#266

Post by jsprogrammer »

hebdo wrote: post #229
earlyresort wrote: post #214

Hard drugs are one of those things that have different consequences for different types of people. An intelligent, wealthy, employable person can dabble with them, have a good time, and usually get away with it. Should they get addicted and screw up their lives, they can usually get help and bounce back without permanent consequences. People who're a little less well-off intellectually and economically aren't so resi…

This kind of rationalizations may ruin your entire life one day. You cannot and do not know where will any experimentation with drugs bring you to. Remember that the first step of the twelve steps is "admitting that one cannot control one's alcoholism, addiction or compulsion". Finding reasons why you are more privileged than others makes this step even harder.

12 steps has a pretty poor record.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#267

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #131
haberman wrote: post #38

I don't know enough about this story to have an overall opinion, but this particular exchange made me angry: > His lawyer, Joshua L. Dratel, in submissions to the judge, argued that the website’s “harm reduction” ethos made it safer than traditional drug dealing on the street. > But prosecutors, in their memo, argued that praising Silk Road for “harm reduction measures” was “akin to applauding a heroin dealer for han…

Bear in mind that prosecutors have a professional duty to zealously argue the government's case just as the defense lawyers have a duty to zealously argue for innocence or lenity of their clients. Unfortunately judges no longer have that much discretion to weigh the competing arguments because of the mandatory sentencing guidelines Congress came up with. It has since been established by the Supreme Court that the gui…

[deleted]

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#268

Post by hebdo »

shit_parade2 wrote: post #259
hebdo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know LSD is mostly harmless?

At least physically it one the safest known chemicals when comparing the amount needed to notice an effect and the LD50 rating.

Well yes, you are right. But just the fact that something is difficult to overdose does not imply long-term safety of use. And as far as I know there are know connections between certain psychiatric issues and LSD usage. This is why I do not believe that "LSD is basically harmless".

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#269

Post by Natsu »

deweller wrote: post #152
Cantremeber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, it happened multiple times. Even if no one was actually killed the guy still tried to have multiple people killed.

allegedly tried to have multiple people killed. The prosecution brought this up at trial but he was not charged or convicted of this in the criminal trial.

There was an interesting link posted by tptacek about this - https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391... - where the Court offers their view on this:

"As explained above, the murder-for-hire evidence is probative both as evidence of the charged offenses and to prove Ulbricht’s identity as DPR—a key disputed issue in this case. In addition, the charges in this case are extremely serious: Ulbricht is charged not with participating in a run-of-the-mill drug distribution conspiracy, but with designing and operating an online criminal enterprise of enormous scope, worldwide reach, and capacity to generate tens of millions of dollars in commissions."

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#270

Post by codecamper »

zf00002 wrote: post #257
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Abraxas, BlackBank, Agora, KISS, Outlaw, East India Company, Babylon, Oxygen, The Real Deal, Bloomsfield, and The Crypto Market?

I don't know. But hinging the argument on bitcoin and decentralization seems short-sighted and letting yourself fall into the same traps as the guys who have been busted.

Well I have no idea what will be the ultimate version of this, but like all ideas, it will probably continue to evolve and improve itself. software is just codified ideas you know.
Post reply on HN