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Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

nytimes.com

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Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#131

Post by anigbrowl »

haberman wrote: post #38

I don't know enough about this story to have an overall opinion, but this particular exchange made me angry: > His lawyer, Joshua L. Dratel, in submissions to the judge, argued that the website’s “harm reduction” ethos made it safer than traditional drug dealing on the street. > But prosecutors, in their memo, argued that praising Silk Road for “harm reduction measures” was “akin to applauding a heroin dealer for han…

Bear in mind that prosecutors have a professional duty to zealously argue the government's case just as the defense lawyers have a duty to zealously argue for innocence or lenity of their clients. Unfortunately judges no longer have that much discretion to weigh the competing arguments because of the mandatory sentencing guidelines Congress came up with. It has since been established by the Supreme Court that the guidelines are just guidelines rather than being binding, but sadly any judge that says 'these guidelines are crap, I've considered them and now I'm going to ignore them' is committing career suicide unless the high sentence would be so bizarre as to truly shock the conscience.

And the American legal conscience unfortunately has a very high shock threshold these days, as does the population in general. I mean, look at how many people cheerfully support torture despite the massive intellectual and ethical pitfalls involved. Many of those people are also indifferent to the Constitutional basis of the judicial branch and start foaming at the mouth any time a court says a piece of legislation is unconstitutional.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#132

Post by chc »

TillE wrote: post #9
api wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he really did attempt to order a hit on someone, that changes the game a little. Now we're no longer talking about just drugs. But I agree that it's absolutely insane if the charges are just drug-related -- rapists get far less time than many drug dealers.

As far as I can tell, he wasn't actually convicted of anything like that.

He wasn't distinctly charged with it, but according to the document tptacek linked earlier (https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391...), the attempted murders for hire were considered to be an element of the criminal enterprise and conspiracy he was running. He was convicted of those charges, so as far as I can tell, he was convicted of something like that.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#133

Post by Retric »

thornofmight wrote: post #120
Cantremeber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, it happened multiple times. Even if no one was actually killed the guy still tried to have multiple people killed.

The person Ross hired as a hitman was an undercover agent who had been befriending Ross online for over a year.

This may have qualified as entrapment which could be why he was not brought up on charges for this.

Still, IMO it is reasonable to bring that up as a character issue.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#134

Post by [deleted] »

thornofmight wrote: post #120
Cantremeber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, it happened multiple times. Even if no one was actually killed the guy still tried to have multiple people killed.

The person Ross hired as a hitman was an undercover agent who had been befriending Ross online for over a year.

[deleted]

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#135

Post by cwyers »

thornofmight wrote: post #120
Cantremeber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, it happened multiple times. Even if no one was actually killed the guy still tried to have multiple people killed.

The person Ross hired as a hitman was an undercover agent who had been befriending Ross online for over a year.

Did he know that?

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#136

Post by dantheman »

fat0wl wrote: post #113
Nadya wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See: Portugal Instead of imprisoning for drug usage - provide treatment and rehab. It's cheaper and has better results. One could argue culture differences in drug usage, but that looks like an attempt to "knock it before you try it". That's without going into how broken the US prison system is! See: privately owned prisons that require a quota to be filled [0]. [0] http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/article/criminal…

There is a huge legal difference between getting caught doing drugs vs facilitating the trafficking of mass quantities of controlled substances. I don't think casual marijuana smokers should get all up in arms like "hey man they are just going after everybody now!", do they offer the same support to heroin cartels? Even if you're against the war on drugs I don't think you should really take it as a personal slight wh…

I'd say that the war on the distribution of heavy narcotics far outweighs any damage down to society by their distribution.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#137

Post by dragonwriter »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #124
dragonwriter wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The murder for hire scheme was the second overt act charged in Count One (an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy is an element of conspiracy.) [0] [0] see p. 5 of the indictment: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/...

So a murder is hidden under a less serious offence? Just search for the phrase murder in the document you linked. How many hits? Zero

> So a murder is hidden under a less serious offence?

No. Soliciting a killing for pay ("murder for hire" in informal terms) as an act to advance a conspiracy is included (hardly "hidden") as one of the alleged overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy, at least one of which must have been found by a juror to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to vote to convict on the conspiracy charge.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#138

Post by tizzdogg »

gr8b8m8-88 wrote: post #86

So let's get this straight for the justice system: 1. misleading the American public into going to a series of costly wars through lies about WMDs -> not punishable 2. Weakening Glass-Stegal and encouraging questionable and irresponsible risk-taking at major banking institutions -> not punishable 3. Fraudulent evaluation of risk-ratings by trusted agencies for the sake of profit leading to worst financial disaster si…

I would change "not punishable" to "not punished". Sure you could be punished for all those things, but there just isnt enough political will to do so. Ulbricht's error was being a criminal whose punishment affects nobody in power.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#139

Post by Nadya »

fat0wl wrote: post #113
Nadya wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See: Portugal Instead of imprisoning for drug usage - provide treatment and rehab. It's cheaper and has better results. One could argue culture differences in drug usage, but that looks like an attempt to "knock it before you try it". That's without going into how broken the US prison system is! See: privately owned prisons that require a quota to be filled [0]. [0] http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/article/criminal…

There is a huge legal difference between getting caught doing drugs vs facilitating the trafficking of mass quantities of controlled substances. I don't think casual marijuana smokers should get all up in arms like "hey man they are just going after everybody now!", do they offer the same support to heroin cartels? Even if you're against the war on drugs I don't think you should really take it as a personal slight wh…

Can read more on policy and its impact here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Distribution and intent to sell are still illegal. I was specifically referring to the users of drugs.

Re: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison

#140

Post by mckoss »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #59
drcode wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand that the "murder for hire" evidence was introduced as part of the trial (at which point Ross' lawyer could have disputed it, but didn't) so it could be used as part of the sentencing decision... and that kind of takes the luster off of the "non-violent crime" argument.

There was no such thing introduced for the trial. It was in the original press release, then it was withdrawn. Maybe it was because of Mark Force's transgressions, or maybe it was just for effect. Regardless, he never got the chance to defend himself against those particular allegations.

Agreed. From the FBI press release on his conviction[1] no mention of the murder-for-hire charge. This conviction and sentencing all stem from the drug-selling business enterprise.

Our war-on-drugs sentencing is quite disproportional, IMHO; imputing societal harms that are unfounded. After all, Mr. Ulbright simply provided a safer way for consenting individuals to enter personal financial transactions.

Silk Road is a drop in the bucket compared to all the transactions arranged over SMS messages and using cash - but we don't hold AT&T and the Federal Reserve responsible for running a criminal enterprise.

===== ULBRICHT, 30, of San Francisco, California, was found guilty of: one count of distributing narcotics, one count of distributing narcotics by means of the Internet, and one count of conspiring to distribute narcotics, each of which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years; one count of engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years in prison; one of count of conspiring to commit computer hacking, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison; one count of conspiring to traffic in false identity documents, which carries a maximum sentence of 15 years; and one count of conspiring to commit money laundering, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. The maximum sentences are prescribed by Congress and are provided for informational purposes only, as the sentence will be determined by the judge. ULBRICHT is scheduled to be sentenced on May 15, 2015.

  [1] http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2015/ross-ulbricht-the-creator-and-owner-of-the-silk-road-website-found-guilty-in-manhattan-federal-court-on-all-counts
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